Talking Carlton Index Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington Lochie O'Brien Kerryn Harrington CFC Home CFC Membership CFC Shop CFC Fixture Blueseum
It is currently Wed May 07, 2025 9:36 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 2341 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 ... 118  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:44 am 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2765
Location: dudley!!!
We could do with a ruckman to help kruese

_________________
my last one was rubbish


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:27 am 
Offline
Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1002
Sydney Blue wrote:
What people fail to take into consideration when they say recruiters should have taken player x over player y is that would player x been as good if he had come to Carlton.

Carlton' s problems have been not who we should have taken it is what we have done to them once we have them.
You get the occasional freakish player that stars no matter where they go.
But the majority needs heaps of development.
You could be the greatest spotter of talent in the world but unless someone harnesses that talent it's a waste of time.

So when Keogh and co rant continuously and say look at them over there it's a pointless exercise.

Carlton problem has been development not recruitment

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


This has been a problem that has carried over from the whole tanking issues that we are only recovering from now.

Development is driven by the leadership group and we haven't had one before cripps & doc took over from captaincy

Gold Coast got Ablett, GWS went for Ward, strong leaders sets the standard and drives the development far more than coaches do


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:09 pm 
Offline
Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6321
Going to watch the footy is an interesting exercise
If an opposition player does an incredible thing what percentage of the opposition
Supporters show appreciation by applauding
How many of you applauded Liam Ryan’s mark
I did but I reckon I would be in the minority

I do bang on about this but to me if it is was someone posting
the same thing about SOS that was all positive would anyone have a problem with that?

I classify myself as a Carlton supporter but not one eyed

People can live in a bubble
For years I taught in a pretty rough school in a low social economic area
When I quit I did do some emergency teaching before choosing other work. I made sure I taught in private schools just to see the difference. Very worthwhile exercise. Both sets of teachers from each end of the social education spectrum were naive about so many things. Including me
I reckon in some cases you can say the same thing about certain footy supporters

Living over in WA I have noticed their a bit naive about a few things compared to people in the East
Whether it’s the 3000 kms distance with not much in between I don’t know
A guy who loves footy was banging on about Silvangi the player and how overrated he was at the local golf club
I merely disagreed saying he was a sensational full back who would have adapted to any new rules
I then surprised him with the stat that he also kicked about 240 goals but I didn’t say it because I support the Carlton footy club. I was trying to win the argument :lol:

The point to all this is yes I’m repetitive but I reckon some of you have your Carlton jumper on too often

The one constant in life is change
Never more true in the AFL
We have only seen the tip of the iceberg with free agency a relatively new phenomenon
Players managers will make sure star players sign till their eight years are up at one club
My understanding is Cripps is contracted till 2021

I hope in the next 2 years particularly 2021 that we show significant improvement
If they have room in their cap I imagine WC and the Dockers would offer Paddy a fortune to be closer to the farm

And if we don’t get better in the next 2 years I personally wouldn’t hold it against him at all
Some of you might say
He won’t leave
We will get better
That’s living in the supporter bubble
Nothing is a certainty
Recruiting and List Management is crucial to reduce star players you do have from good recruiting in the first place


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:09 pm 
Offline
John James
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:19 pm
Posts: 669
Location: KG
keogh wrote:
Going to watch the footy is an interesting exercise
If an opposition player does an incredible thing what percentage of the opposition
Supporters show appreciation by applauding
How many of you applauded Liam Ryan’s mark
I did but I reckon I would be in the minority

I do bang on about this but to me if it is was someone posting
the same thing about SOS that was all positive would anyone have a problem with that?


I classify myself as a Carlton supporter but not one eyed

People can live in a bubble
For years I taught in a pretty rough school in a low social economic area
When I quit I did do some emergency teaching before choosing other work. I made sure I taught in private schools just to see the difference. Very worthwhile exercise. Both sets of teachers from each end of the social education spectrum were naive about so many things. Including me
I reckon in some cases you can say the same thing about certain footy supporters

Living over in WA I have noticed their a bit naive about a few things compared to people in the East
Whether it’s the 3000 kms distance with not much in between I don’t know
A guy who loves footy was banging on about Silvangi the player and how overrated he was at the local golf club
I merely disagreed saying he was a sensational full back who would have adapted to any new rules
I then surprised him with the stat that he also kicked about 240 goals but I didn’t say it because I support the Carlton footy club. I was trying to win the argument :lol:

The point to all this is yes I’m repetitive but I reckon some of you have your Carlton jumper on too often

The one constant in life is change
Never more true in the AFL
We have only seen the tip of the iceberg with free agency a relatively new phenomenon
Players managers will make sure star players sign till their eight years are up at one club
My understanding is Cripps is contracted till 2021

I hope in the next 2 years particularly 2021 that we show significant improvement
If they have room in their cap I imagine WC and the Dockers would offer Paddy a fortune to be closer to the farm

And if we don’t get better in the next 2 years I personally wouldn’t hold it against him at all
Some of you might say
He won’t leave
We will get better
That’s living in the supporter bubble
Nothing is a certainty
Recruiting and List Management is crucial to reduce star players you do have from good recruiting in the first place


Yes, if they repeated the same stuff 5327 times.

_________________
No Guts, No Glory


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:45 pm 
Offline
Alex Jesaulenko
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24612
Location: Kaloyasena
When I go to the footy I put my Carlton jumper on and barrack and sugar coat all over the cracks.

When I talk about Carlton here (and there :wink: ) I like to talk about it “as it is”.


“As it is” right now is better than its ever been for a long time - but there is always room for improvement - that’s constant continual improvement, because if you don’t you’ll either never catch up or you’ll be overtaken.

We’re in the overtaking lane at the moment but we haven’t passed anyone yet.

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:53 pm 
Offline
Robert Walls

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:27 am
Posts: 3581
AGRO wrote:

We’re in the overtaking lane at the moment but we haven’t passed anyone yet.

Usually metaphors suck. This one is actually good. Well put.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:12 pm 
Offline
Alex Jesaulenko
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24612
Location: Kaloyasena
toddkurnski wrote:
AGRO wrote:

We’re in the overtaking lane at the moment but we haven’t passed anyone yet.

Usually metaphors suck. This one is actually good. Well put.




Thanks toddkurnski for the compliment mate - appreciate that, they’re rare around here. :thumbsup:



Unlike my good mate McConville33?

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:20 pm 
Offline
Ken Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 10374
Location: Coburg
right now we are better, much better, in many aspects and we all know none of it means anything unless we return to finals to flags to days like tomorrow (but when everyone is sick to death of us being there!). There are gaps, there are kids who may or may not make it, there are emerging champions and a true champion of the old mould, all in all, its better than it has been for a long while but it is no where near good enough.

oh, and yes Agro, excellent metaphor!

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:31 pm 
Offline
Ken Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10471
AGRO wrote:
When I go to the footy I put my Carlton jumper on and barrack and sugar coat all over the cracks.

When I talk about Carlton here (and there :wink: ) I like to talk about it “as it is”.


“As it is” right now is better than its ever been for a long time - but there is always room for improvement - that’s constant continual improvement, because if you don’t you’ll either never catch up or you’ll be overtaken.

We’re in the overtaking lane at the moment but we haven’t passed anyone yet.


:clap: :thumbsup:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:44 pm 
Offline
Rod Ashman
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:52 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Geelong
Sydney Blue wrote:
What people fail to take into consideration when they say recruiters should have taken player x over player y is that would player x been as good if he had come to Carlton.

Carlton' s problems have been not who we should have taken it is what we have done to them once we have them.
You get the occasional freakish player that stars no matter where they go.
But the majority needs heaps of development.
You could be the greatest spotter of talent in the world but unless someone harnesses that talent it's a waste of time.

So when Keogh and co rant continuously and say look at them over there it's a pointless exercise.

Carlton problem has been development not recruitment

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


What do you base this call on Sydney? (Not having a go, just interested in your views)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:19 pm 
Offline
Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
cecil89 wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
Walsh wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
keogh wrote:
Here is a snap shot from last nights game in regards to Richmond’s lesser lights
They all played their role effectively
Castagna 2017 rookie elevation
Short 2016 rookie elevation
Soldo 2017 rookie elevation
Lambert 2015 rookie elevation
Astbury pick 35 2009 draft
Graham pick 53 2016 draft
Broad pick 67 2015 draft

On top of this Grimes and Houli were both pre season picks

It’s this sort of recruiting that makes you a top team
In his time so far has SOS jagged any gems from nothing
Gibbons yes but can’t think of many others
Sure they gave up a lot to get Presty and Lynch was a gift called free agency

But every year the top teams are littered with guys who have been drafted from obscurity

Do the research
Richmond won last night without their best defender Riewoldt had a shocker as did Cotchin

West Coast won it without 3 top ten picks last year in Nick Nat Shepherd and Gaff

Our recruiting under SOS and Brodie is not good enough compared to other teams
like Richmond and Clarke
In order to get Martin we will probably have to part with 2 picks and because of what our recruiting team did last year that means a future pick
All for another bloke who is talented with big wraps but up to this point hasn’t done a lot to back it up
Like McGovern




As I have said before the most important person at a footy club is your head of recruiting


You left out Liam Baker who we chased this year...

And Jack Ross and Sydney Stack who are both better than Baker

And as for Jack Graham, BB wanted him a few picks before the tigers took him, SOS won the argument and took Macreadie

Then again, BB seriously wanted Josh Dunkley, he lost that argument too, and Ed Richards, well you know how that went... our midfield depth wouldn’t be as shallow as it is

From last night’s game, the Cats turned Darcy Lang into Gryan Miers


Think this is being slightly untruthful. Senior coaches dont get involved in scouting players.


I guess the previous CEO was being untruthful... Carlton requested additional time at the draft(s) when it was our turn(s), there was robust discussion between SOS and BB...

BB simply wanted more and more mids... Dunkley was a much better mid as a junior than Cunningham (even though Cunningham was a much nicer looking player, he couldn't win his own ball), and Graham was a well performed mid & SA under 18 capt, whereas Macreadie was a tall defender

BB's view was that SOS didn't deliver and BB let Liddle know that when he was fired...

no secret SOS wasn't a fan of BB


Our previous CEO was sacked 6 weeks before the draft where Ed Richards was drafted. I’d love to know how much he knows about the robust discussion that took place re his (non) selection on draft night.


Brilliant comprehension skills, I highlighted the key parts to make it easier for you... there's no mention of of Ed Richards!!! :lol:

There was no discussion for pick 10 at the Richards/LOB draft, BB had already lost the argument prior to the draft... Ed was summoned to Princes Park for an additional interview (why?), and was late because he got caught in traffic on Royal Parade... so SOS immediately ruled him out i.e. Richards was unreliable/unprofessional... thankfully, SOS was a little more forgiving with Charlie! :grin:

SOS was sold on LOB, had been for 2 years prior to the draft

When SOS likes a player, know one can change his mind, no price is too much too pay draft or trade wise, he has the final word...

BB continuously provided input on list composition, on what he needed etc etc with little success...

Know one is going to argue with SOS (he also has Brodie as his fanboy)... it's understood that SOS isn't going anywhere (unless SOS decides to leave) while MLG is president

SOS having total control wouldn't be a problem if he was doing a good job... maybe he is, the debate continues...

We need a top 4 list capable of challenging for a flag, not merely limping into the eight

Hopefully the rebuild is complete or close enough, while our captain, the most dynamic, unstoppable player in the league is still in his prime!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:18 am 
Offline
Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7453
Location: Bendigo
If ‘complete’ is having the 22 pieces to the premiership puzzle, SOS must’ve found the other 14 he needed.

Simpson, Murphy, Curnow, Kreuzer, Jones, Casboult and the two captains Docherty & Cripps are all that remain from when he took over. Close enough to 40 positions, turned over by at least half again, to find 14 players good enough to join the eight that remain.

We’ve played 88 games with players that SOS has hand picked.
Plowman (75) and Weitering (76) are the only two that have got close to that number. Samo has played 64 out of a possible 66. Add Jack & Charlie to the list as having cracked 50 games. Give him McKay as well with the big man discount, as well as Walsh who is a phenom.

That’s seven added to the eight he started with, though that eight will probably be five in 12 months time... so let’s say 12-15 that he’s locked in and only two names added in the last three intakes.

That’s a pretty good core, but there’s probably only another five that might add themselves to that group.

_________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:14 am 
Offline
Stephen Kernahan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:56 am
Posts: 19501
Location: Progreso, Yucatan, MEXICO
toddkurnski wrote:
AGRO wrote:

We’re in the overtaking lane at the moment but we haven’t passed anyone yet.

Usually metaphors suck. This one is actually good. Well put.

X2

_________________
Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:00 am 
Offline
John Nicholls

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 9608
Location: Australia
ColourMan wrote:
cecil89 wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
Walsh wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
[quote="keogh"]Here is a snap shot from last nights game in regards to Richmond’s lesser lights
They all played their role effectively
Castagna 2017 rookie elevation
Short 2016 rookie elevation
Soldo 2017 rookie elevation
Lambert 2015 rookie elevation
Astbury pick 35 2009 draft
Graham pick 53 2016 draft
Broad pick 67 2015 draft

On top of this Grimes and Houli were both pre season picks

It’s this sort of recruiting that makes you a top team
In his time so far has SOS jagged any gems from nothing
Gibbons yes but can’t think of many others
Sure they gave up a lot to get Presty and Lynch was a gift called free agency

But every year the top teams are littered with guys who have been drafted from obscurity

Do the research
Richmond won last night without their best defender Riewoldt had a shocker as did Cotchin

West Coast won it without 3 top ten picks last year in Nick Nat Shepherd and Gaff

Our recruiting under SOS and Brodie is not good enough compared to other teams
like Richmond and Clarke
In order to get Martin we will probably have to part with 2 picks and because of what our recruiting team did last year that means a future pick
All for another bloke who is talented with big wraps but up to this point hasn’t done a lot to back it up
Like McGovern




As I have said before the most important person at a footy club is your head of recruiting


You left out Liam Baker who we chased this year...

And Jack Ross and Sydney Stack who are both better than Baker

And as for Jack Graham, BB wanted him a few picks before the tigers took him, SOS won the argument and took Macreadie

Then again, BB seriously wanted Josh Dunkley, he lost that argument too, and Ed Richards, well you know how that went... our midfield depth wouldn’t be as shallow as it is

From last night’s game, the Cats turned Darcy Lang into Gryan Miers


Think this is being slightly untruthful. Senior coaches dont get involved in scouting players.


I guess the previous CEO was being untruthful... Carlton requested additional time at the draft(s) when it was our turn(s), there was robust discussion between SOS and BB...

BB simply wanted more and more mids... Dunkley was a much better mid as a junior than Cunningham (even though Cunningham was a much nicer looking player, he couldn't win his own ball), and Graham was a well performed mid & SA under 18 capt, whereas Macreadie was a tall defender

BB's view was that SOS didn't deliver and BB let Liddle know that when he was fired...

no secret SOS wasn't a fan of BB


Our previous CEO was sacked 6 weeks before the draft where Ed Richards was drafted. I’d love to know how much he knows about the robust discussion that took place re his (non) selection on draft night.


Brilliant comprehension skills, I highlighted the key parts to make it easier for you... there's no mention of of Ed Richards!!! :lol:

There was no discussion for pick 10 at the Richards/LOB draft, BB had already lost the argument prior to the draft... Ed was summoned to Princes Park for an additional interview (why?), and was late because he got caught in traffic on Royal Parade... so SOS immediately ruled him out i.e. Richards was unreliable/unprofessional... thankfully, SOS was a little more forgiving with Charlie! :grin:

SOS was sold on LOB, had been for 2 years prior to the draft

When SOS likes a player, know one can change his mind, no price is too much too pay draft or trade wise, he has the final word...

BB continuously provided input on list composition, on what he needed etc etc with little success...

Know one is going to argue with SOS (he also has Brodie as his fanboy)... it's understood that SOS isn't going anywhere (unless SOS decides to leave) while MLG is president

SOS having total control wouldn't be a problem if he was doing a good job... maybe he is, the debate continues...

We need a top 4 list capable of challenging for a flag, not merely limping into the eight

Hopefully the rebuild is complete or close enough, while our captain, the most dynamic, unstoppable player in the league is still in his prime![/quote]

I had to look Ed Richards up, such is his fame. 21 games for 8 goals, is he that much better than LOB who has 35 games with 9 goals?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:45 am 
Offline
Banned

Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:55 pm
Posts: 2333
LOB's upside is enormous.. long accurate kick, huge tank, good at tackling just needs to fill out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:14 pm 
Offline
Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7453
Location: Bendigo
Crusader wrote:
If ‘complete’ is having the 22 pieces to the premiership puzzle, SOS must’ve found the other 14 he needed.

Simpson, Murphy, Curnow, Kreuzer, Jones, Casboult and the two captains Docherty & Cripps are all that remain from when he took over. Close enough to 40 positions, turned over by at least half again, to find 14 players good enough to join the eight that remain.

We’ve played 88 games with players that SOS has hand picked.
Plowman (75) and Weitering (76) are the only two that have got close to that number. Samo has played 64 out of a possible 66. Add Jack & Charlie to the list as having cracked 50 games. Give him McKay as well with the big man discount, as well as Walsh who is a phenom.

That’s seven added to the eight he started with, though that eight will probably be five in 12 months time... so let’s say 12-15 that he’s locked in and only two names added in the last three intakes.

That’s a pretty good core, but there’s probably only another five that might add themselves to that group.

Upwards of 60 moves to find 7-12 regulars... is that good enough?

Key position players are pretty hard to find & he nailed that first time out... perhaps a bit of 'game recognise game'? Would make sense, because the bulk of his moves have been trying to find the right smalls & he hasn't found one outside the top six draft picks.

_________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:29 pm 
Offline
Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6321
Anyone of u blokes wondering about the
Pickett over Deluca debate
The importance of the WAFL
After what you have seen in the first 3 quarters today
Would love Pickett for a few years
SOs well and truly has [REDACTED] up here
Love the counter argument
And don’t get personal

@#$%&! how many tackles Deluca lays or if he is 4 years younger
As I said bad recruiting kills ya


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:35 pm 
Offline
Vale 1953-2020
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 11671
keogh wrote:
Anyone of u blokes wondering about the
Pickett over Deluca debate
The importance of the WAFL
After what you have seen in the first 3 quarters today
Would love Pickett for a few years
SOs well and truly has [REDACTED] up here
Love the counter argument
And don’t get personal

@#$%&! how many tackles Deluca lays or if he is 4 years younger
As I said bad recruiting kills ya
Image

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

_________________
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:37 pm 
Offline
Ken Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:12 am
Posts: 10374
Location: Coburg
Picket is 27 in 3 years he would be 30 - could be good but worth the risk? Tigers, they are ready now so grabbed him now not for any 3 years down the track. That's the difference, it's the getting there that is hard, once there choices really do open up. And arguments based on past events only mean something if at the moment you might have said - take picket! And even then, we really would need to wait 3 years to see.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:45 pm 
Offline
Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6321
moshe25 wrote:
keogh wrote:
Anyone of u blokes wondering about the
Pickett over Deluca debate
The importance of the WAFL
After what you have seen in the first 3 quarters today
Would love Pickett for a few years
SOs well and truly has [REDACTED] up here
Love the counter argument
And don’t get personal

@#$%&! how many tackles Deluca lays or if he is 4 years younger
As I said bad recruiting kills ya
Image

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Not hindsight
It was obvious
As I said and nobody has answered
How does the club s recruiting department oversee the WAFL


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 2341 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 ... 118  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Toranasaurus and 129 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group