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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:18 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
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Location: dudley!!!
Or a recruitment manager....


The player we messed up on was Lambert. Look what he did with richmond

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:20 am 
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Ken Hunter
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I read a book about birds
I have some knowledge of flying

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:21 am 
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John James
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GWS wrote:
Weird.

I always thought you were an English teacher.


He arnt

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:50 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24665
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
Just on Mc Govern
Having been a personal trainer and a Phys Ed teacher with a major in Biomechanics I have some knowledge about elite athletes
MC Govern is obviously a power athlete
What that means is this
We all have two types of muscle fibres fast and slow twitching
If you have more slow twitching you are suited to endurance events
Mc Govern is the obviously the opposite
That’s why he looks a million dollars when he goes go those speccies
He has explosive power

Here is the thing
A marathon runner can’t really improve his speed or more specifically his anaerobic capacity
But the opposite applies to a power athlete like McGovern
He clearly has been lazy before he busted his back pre season in his previous years at the Crows
Doesn’t work hard enough to make himself better

Yep I was a bit of a flower at 24 but with all the fitness people at these players disposal I find it staggering that a guy can be 5 kilos overweight in elite sport let alone not fit enough aerobically to play the game

Just a thought dudes


...and you can tell all that from watching McGovern from afar?

...and you seem to forget he was picked to play underdone... decision made by Teague to bring leadreship..he said it was wrong.

...and you think he was training hard to be at peak condition to play round 1 whilst he had a fractured back?

Give me a break. You are unreasonable and obsessed with SOS and previous regimes.

You're clutching for straws. You were wrong with all or most of your accusations about our list/ SOS.

Lets get back to discussing the list and what we need moving forward instead of what Elliot, Collins, Kernahan did pre project rebuild 2015.

We have a couple of gaps to feel, and hopefully can push a few kids back to learning their craft in the VFL, instead of being exposed as kids in the big time.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:37 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
On top of this I would of personally picked Pickett over Deluca
Pickett has far more upside and would add to our midfield depth which is highly questionable


I just did a search on your previous posts. No mention of him until after the selections. :?

FWIW, I suspect SOS has his eyes elsewhere at the moment. West Coast will have to acquire picks to get Kelly over the line and I suspect we're looking to get into the negotiation. Perhaps giving WC our future first for the right price.


9 for 14 and 32 would be a great outcome.

9 and 40 for 14 and 23 even better.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:06 pm 
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John Nicholls
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There's far more to power vs endurance Keogh than fibre types - which are only a part of the equation. Spending time training one means less time spent training the other. It's simply not possible to have elite levels of both... not meaningfully. Without being a genetic freak that is. That's why some runners become sprinters, some become marathoners. Same with cyclists - track vs sprinters vs grand tours.

With certain types of training, type 2 (fast twitch) muscle fibres can be changed by the body to Type 1 (slow twitch) fibres as part of the adaptation to dose-response, but the extent to which this can happen is relatively minor.

Of far more importance in aerobic endurance is VO2max and Maximal Lactate Steady State. While they can be extended slightly, these are largely genetic. They'd also be hard to train when you've got a niggling issue with a disk in your flower spine! Part of McGovern's trade a forward is getting separation leading away from defenders, closing speed applying pressure, and vertical leap. I wouldn't want him to sacrifice his explosiveness for a bit more endurance... he's not a midfielder.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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robertbb wrote:
There's far more to power vs endurance Keogh than fibre types - which are only a part of the equation. Spending time training one means less time spent training the other. It's simply not possible to have elite levels of both... not meaningfully. Without being a genetic freak that is. That's why some runners become sprinters, some become marathoners. Same with cyclists - track vs sprinters vs grand tours.

With certain types of training, type 2 (fast twitch) muscle fibres can be changed by the body to Type 1 (slow twitch) fibres as part of the adaptation to dose-response, but the extent to which this can happen is relatively minor.

Of far more importance in aerobic endurance is VO2max and Maximal Lactate Steady State. While they can be extended slightly, these are largely genetic. They'd also be hard to train when you've got a niggling issue with a disk in your flower spine! Part of McGovern's trade a forward is getting separation leading away from defenders, closing speed applying pressure, and vertical leap. I wouldn't want him to sacrifice his explosiveness for a bit more endurance... he's not a midfielder.

:thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I can't wait to wake up in the morning and read the stuff you lot have been on about during my night.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:10 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6321
Sidefx wrote:
robertbb wrote:
There's far more to power vs endurance Keogh than fibre types - which are only a part of the equation. Spending time training one means less time spent training the other. It's simply not possible to have elite levels of both... not meaningfully. Without being a genetic freak that is. That's why some runners become sprinters, some become marathoners. Same with cyclists - track vs sprinters vs grand tours.

With certain types of training, type 2 (fast twitch) muscle fibres can be changed by the body to Type 1 (slow twitch) fibres as part of the adaptation to dose-response, but the extent to which this can happen is relatively minor.

Of far more importance in aerobic endurance is VO2max and Maximal Lactate Steady State. While they can be extended slightly, these are largely genetic. They'd also be hard to train when you've got a niggling issue with a disk in your flower spine! Part of McGovern's trade a forward is getting separation leading away from defenders, closing speed applying pressure, and vertical leap. I wouldn't want him to sacrifice his explosiveness for a bit more endurance... he's not a midfielder.

:thumbsup:


One thing you have failed to mention
To improve your VO2 max and increase endurance levels (which can be improved in most individuals by 15 to 20%) the best way to do this is by short sharp bursts of intense exercise with short rests inbetween
Interval training
The added benefit to this is that it’s less time consuming than running or cycling for 2 hours at a constant moderate pace
Given that he was able to play throughout the season and I assume his job is a professional athlete he could of improved his aerobic capacity more before going to the “cage”
Great to see the club take a stand on unfit players
Doesn’t say much for the Crows head of fitness


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:15 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm
Posts: 6359
keogh wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
robertbb wrote:
There's far more to power vs endurance Keogh than fibre types - which are only a part of the equation. Spending time training one means less time spent training the other. It's simply not possible to have elite levels of both... not meaningfully. Without being a genetic freak that is. That's why some runners become sprinters, some become marathoners. Same with cyclists - track vs sprinters vs grand tours.

With certain types of training, type 2 (fast twitch) muscle fibres can be changed by the body to Type 1 (slow twitch) fibres as part of the adaptation to dose-response, but the extent to which this can happen is relatively minor.

Of far more importance in aerobic endurance is VO2max and Maximal Lactate Steady State. While they can be extended slightly, these are largely genetic. They'd also be hard to train when you've got a niggling issue with a disk in your flower spine! Part of McGovern's trade a forward is getting separation leading away from defenders, closing speed applying pressure, and vertical leap. I wouldn't want him to sacrifice his explosiveness for a bit more endurance... he's not a midfielder.

:thumbsup:


One thing you have failed to mention
To improve your VO2 max and increase endurance levels (which can be improved in most individuals by 15 to 20%) the best way to do this is by short sharp bursts of intense exercise with short rests inbetween
Interval training
The added benefit to this is that it’s less time consuming than running or cycling for 2 hours at a constant moderate pace
Given that he was able to play throughout the season and I assume his job is a professional athlete he could of improved his aerobic capacity more before going to the “cage”
Great to see the club take a stand on unfit players
Doesn’t say much for the Crows head of fitness

Altitude training works too. I used to be fit as, when I came back from 3 weeks of snowboarding.
They should of sent his fat butt to the snow for a few weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:22 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
I can't wait to wake up in the morning and read the stuff you lot have been on about during my night.

@#$%&! that I no longer sleep fearing what I'll miss.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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dannyboy wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
I can't wait to wake up in the morning and read the stuff you lot have been on about during my night.

@#$%&! that I no longer sleep fearing what I'll miss.


You really need to get out more... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:36 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Walsh wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
keogh wrote:
Here is a snap shot from last nights game in regards to Richmond’s lesser lights
They all played their role effectively
Castagna 2017 rookie elevation
Short 2016 rookie elevation
Soldo 2017 rookie elevation
Lambert 2015 rookie elevation
Astbury pick 35 2009 draft
Graham pick 53 2016 draft
Broad pick 67 2015 draft

On top of this Grimes and Houli were both pre season picks

It’s this sort of recruiting that makes you a top team
In his time so far has SOS jagged any gems from nothing
Gibbons yes but can’t think of many others
Sure they gave up a lot to get Presty and Lynch was a gift called free agency

But every year the top teams are littered with guys who have been drafted from obscurity

Do the research
Richmond won last night without their best defender Riewoldt had a shocker as did Cotchin

West Coast won it without 3 top ten picks last year in Nick Nat Shepherd and Gaff

Our recruiting under SOS and Brodie is not good enough compared to other teams
like Richmond and Clarke
In order to get Martin we will probably have to part with 2 picks and because of what our recruiting team did last year that means a future pick
All for another bloke who is talented with big wraps but up to this point hasn’t done a lot to back it up
Like McGovern




As I have said before the most important person at a footy club is your head of recruiting


You left out Liam Baker who we chased this year...

And Jack Ross and Sydney Stack who are both better than Baker

And as for Jack Graham, BB wanted him a few picks before the tigers took him, SOS won the argument and took Macreadie

Then again, BB seriously wanted Josh Dunkley, he lost that argument too, and Ed Richards, well you know how that went... our midfield depth wouldn’t be as shallow as it is

From last night’s game, the Cats turned Darcy Lang into Gryan Miers


Think this is being slightly untruthful. Senior coaches dont get involved in scouting players.


I guess the previous CEO was being untruthful... Carlton requested additional time at the draft(s) when it was our turn(s), there was robust discussion between SOS and BB...

BB simply wanted more and more mids... Dunkley was a much better mid as a junior than Cunningham (even though Cunningham was a much nicer looking player, he couldn't win his own ball), and Graham was a well performed mid & SA under 18 capt, whereas Macreadie was a tall defender

BB's view was that SOS didn't deliver and BB let Liddle know that when he was fired...

no secret SOS wasn't a fan of BB


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:29 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:54 pm
Posts: 2521
ColourMan wrote:
Walsh wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
keogh wrote:
Here is a snap shot from last nights game in regards to Richmond’s lesser lights
They all played their role effectively
Castagna 2017 rookie elevation
Short 2016 rookie elevation
Soldo 2017 rookie elevation
Lambert 2015 rookie elevation
Astbury pick 35 2009 draft
Graham pick 53 2016 draft
Broad pick 67 2015 draft

On top of this Grimes and Houli were both pre season picks

It’s this sort of recruiting that makes you a top team
In his time so far has SOS jagged any gems from nothing
Gibbons yes but can’t think of many others
Sure they gave up a lot to get Presty and Lynch was a gift called free agency

But every year the top teams are littered with guys who have been drafted from obscurity

Do the research
Richmond won last night without their best defender Riewoldt had a shocker as did Cotchin

West Coast won it without 3 top ten picks last year in Nick Nat Shepherd and Gaff

Our recruiting under SOS and Brodie is not good enough compared to other teams
like Richmond and Clarke
In order to get Martin we will probably have to part with 2 picks and because of what our recruiting team did last year that means a future pick
All for another bloke who is talented with big wraps but up to this point hasn’t done a lot to back it up
Like McGovern




As I have said before the most important person at a footy club is your head of recruiting


You left out Liam Baker who we chased this year...

And Jack Ross and Sydney Stack who are both better than Baker

And as for Jack Graham, BB wanted him a few picks before the tigers took him, SOS won the argument and took Macreadie

Then again, BB seriously wanted Josh Dunkley, he lost that argument too, and Ed Richards, well you know how that went... our midfield depth wouldn’t be as shallow as it is

From last night’s game, the Cats turned Darcy Lang into Gryan Miers


Think this is being slightly untruthful. Senior coaches dont get involved in scouting players.


I guess the previous CEO was being untruthful... Carlton requested additional time at the draft(s) when it was our turn(s), there was robust discussion between SOS and BB...

BB simply wanted more and more mids... Dunkley was a much better mid as a junior than Cunningham (even though Cunningham was a much nicer looking player, he couldn't win his own ball), and Graham was a well performed mid & SA under 18 capt, whereas Macreadie was a tall defender

BB's view was that SOS didn't deliver and BB let Liddle know that when he was fired...

no secret SOS wasn't a fan of BB


Our previous CEO was sacked 6 weeks before the draft where Ed Richards was drafted. I’d love to know how much he knows about the robust discussion that took place re his (non) selection on draft night.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:31 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2765
Location: dudley!!!
dannyboy wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
I can't wait to wake up in the morning and read the stuff you lot have been on about during my night.

@#$%&! that I no longer sleep fearing what I'll miss.


perhaps keep reading books about birds to keep you awake

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:34 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2765
Location: dudley!!!
cecil89 wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
Walsh wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
keogh wrote:
Here is a snap shot from last nights game in regards to Richmond’s lesser lights
They all played their role effectively
Castagna 2017 rookie elevation
Short 2016 rookie elevation
Soldo 2017 rookie elevation
Lambert 2015 rookie elevation
Astbury pick 35 2009 draft
Graham pick 53 2016 draft
Broad pick 67 2015 draft

On top of this Grimes and Houli were both pre season picks

It’s this sort of recruiting that makes you a top team
In his time so far has SOS jagged any gems from nothing
Gibbons yes but can’t think of many others
Sure they gave up a lot to get Presty and Lynch was a gift called free agency

But every year the top teams are littered with guys who have been drafted from obscurity

Do the research
Richmond won last night without their best defender Riewoldt had a shocker as did Cotchin

West Coast won it without 3 top ten picks last year in Nick Nat Shepherd and Gaff

Our recruiting under SOS and Brodie is not good enough compared to other teams
like Richmond and Clarke
In order to get Martin we will probably have to part with 2 picks and because of what our recruiting team did last year that means a future pick
All for another bloke who is talented with big wraps but up to this point hasn’t done a lot to back it up
Like McGovern




As I have said before the most important person at a footy club is your head of recruiting


You left out Liam Baker who we chased this year...

And Jack Ross and Sydney Stack who are both better than Baker

And as for Jack Graham, BB wanted him a few picks before the tigers took him, SOS won the argument and took Macreadie

Then again, BB seriously wanted Josh Dunkley, he lost that argument too, and Ed Richards, well you know how that went... our midfield depth wouldn’t be as shallow as it is

From last night’s game, the Cats turned Darcy Lang into Gryan Miers


Think this is being slightly untruthful. Senior coaches dont get involved in scouting players.


I guess the previous CEO was being untruthful... Carlton requested additional time at the draft(s) when it was our turn(s), there was robust discussion between SOS and BB...

BB simply wanted more and more mids... Dunkley was a much better mid as a junior than Cunningham (even though Cunningham was a much nicer looking player, he couldn't win his own ball), and Graham was a well performed mid & SA under 18 capt, whereas Macreadie was a tall defender

BB's view was that SOS didn't deliver and BB let Liddle know that when he was fired...

no secret SOS wasn't a fan of BB


Our previous CEO was sacked 6 weeks before the draft where Ed Richards was drafted. I’d love to know how much he knows about the robust discussion that took place re his (non) selection on draft night.


if this is true though, then BB is right - Dunkley and Graham are both fantastic mids. though i will back cunners and macreadie to come good in the long term

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24665
Location: Bondi Beach
Rod Spooky Galt wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
keogh wrote:
On top of this I would of personally picked Pickett over Deluca
Pickett has far more upside and would add to our midfield depth which is highly questionable


I just did a search on your previous posts. No mention of him until after the selections. :?

FWIW, I suspect SOS has his eyes elsewhere at the moment. West Coast will have to acquire picks to get Kelly over the line and I suspect we're looking to get into the negotiation. Perhaps giving WC our future first for the right price.


9 for 14 and 32 would be a great outcome.

9 and 40 for 14 and 23 even better.


I really like this thinking, especially if that gets us Papley and Martin in one swoop.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:40 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1002
keogh wrote:
Steve_C7 wrote:
keogh wrote:
No I’m not
How does Deluca help our future midfield depth
Look through all the premiership teams of the last 5 years ten years
The team is not littered with top 30 picks

Has Sos pick some gems from anywhere else
Pickett provides more depth to the midfield
Could get 4 years out of him
Deluca is a limited footballer
What else does he provide other than forward tackling pressure

I reckon with a lot of supporters and maybe your one of them you only look at your team
There are 17 others
Richmond wouldn’t have won Friday night if it wasn’t for their depth and many players in that team
arnt top 30 picks Lynch had a great game but there not a one man team
I’m not emotional about Sos and it doesn’t cloud my judgment about him
I’m comparing how we recruit compared to other teams
In certain areas we fall short in recruiting compared to other teams


Do you watch other games?
Have you watched all the finals?
Many supporters don’t and probably many posters in this site don’t if you look at some of the biased rubbish they write
Next year depending on all of the intangibles like injuries team harmony form etc
of all 18 clubs we could finish from bottom of the eight till last
But in the big games and business end time the luck factor isn’t as great and every weakness gets exposed
Geelong no ruckman lack pace
Essendon**** poor depth
Collingwood lack of a big key forward

To win a flag every trade and pick is crucial
Our list has too many flanker types who lack pace
Our future midfield is not convincing yes too early to call but Dow and co are behind in their development


OK I'll bite.

Firstly, most premiership sides core players are top 20 picks

WC Eagles
Sheed 11
Kenedey 4
Shuey 18
Hurn 13
Gaff 4
Naitanui 2
Darling 26 (PP Pick)

Richmond
Prestia 5
Martin 3
Cotchin 2
Riewoldt 13
Rance 18 (PP)
Ellis 15
Conca 6

Doggies
Bontempelli 4
Smith 7
Macrae 6
Stinger 5
Wallis 22
Crozier 20
Boyd 1

Hawthorn
Hodge 1 (PP)
Lewis 7
Roughhead 2
Smith 19
Burgoyne 12
Birchall 14
Rioli 12
McEvoy 9
Schoenmakers 16
Hale 7
Frawley 12

Point 2 seeing as you want to go there.

I watch around 60-80 games per season on average with around 12 games live. I just don't cherry pick drafts or trades from other teams to prove a point, but much rather look at the list strategy as a whole.

There are still many holes on our list, however the plan IMHO has been mostly been successful, we have used our high end picks for key talls Harry, Weitering, Curnow first year of rebuild.
Build backline second year with Marchbank, Macreadie, Williamson and some mids in Samo & Fisher.
Third year start building mids with Dow, O'Brien, Kennedy, Lang and plugging holes DeKoning, Lobbe, Schumacher
Fourth year more mids Walsh, Setterfield, Stoker, Gibbons plus McGovern as trade request

All the premiership teams have built there list over a very long period of time, in most cases 10 years and we are in the same category.

We have a massive hole in the 26-30 age bracket so you can either trade your way to fill it or keep refining the list until the likes of Harry, Curnow, Cripps, Wieters, Doc, Marchbank get there naturally in the next few years.

Have other teams found a steal in the draft, sure and for most of those steals it is a risk reward metric that only the teams that have a mostly complete list can afford to make (i.e Richmond with Stack).

For all your carrying on, please show me where SOS has used quality picks for rubbish players, my guess is you can't

Kennedy for 28
Kennedy isn’t rubbish as a third tall forward but he is rubbish as an inside mid
Dow early days but the guy doesn’t find the footy much picks 3
Other recruiters were surprised OBrien went at 10
Softer than warm marshmallows
And softness has nothing to do with age or body shape
Ask Selwood and Simpson
Mc Govern is so @#$%&! overrated for picks 26 and 28
Even if McAdam turns out shit his 2 Nd and 3rd efforts are non existent even when he isn’t fat
Some of the blokes you listed didn’t play In the Grand Final
And while your reading list all 22 and where they came from
Tells a far clearer picture about depth


If you watch enough football as you claim you do, it would be very wise not to write off players that haven't played 50 games of football yet. They are still doing their apprenticeship, even so, how many midfielders after Dow have shown any more with the exception of Kelly?

I get that you are pissed with the McGovern trade, however what chance are we of attracting trades if we have a quality player who wants to come to a club that won only 2 games for the year and we can't facilitate a deal?

Let's see how McGovern goes next season with a full pre season and some time gelling with the forward group before you judge his value

In regards to the whole list profile, depth is built over a long period of time, as I said in my post, you are comparing lists that have been built over a 10 year period and I can assure you that in 10 years our list will be significanty better than it is right now and a lot of other clubs to boot.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:56 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6321
In the 4 drafts he has lead the Blues recruiting name me one player he has picked that’s look ok from a late pick
rookie or pre season
I’ll give u two
Williamson looked good before he [REDACTED] his back
Gibbons which was an after thought after Bugg(GWS) retired
Give me some more
You haven’t listed the players who played in flags that are recruited from these draft positions
Simply put Silvangi has surrounded kids with mature bodies from other AFL clubs who in the main have been shit
Most have been delisted already

I much rather recruit a late developer in his early 20s from the WAFL
There are a few at Subiaco who would be a better option than
Fasolo
Mullet
O’Shea
Lobbe
Smedts
Sumner
Want me to keep going
Michael Braut is one bloke I would look to recruit
Late developer 22 big bodied
Had an excellent granny
A
Depth can happen quicker than 10 years


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 Post subject: List Management 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:11 am
Posts: 25
The last late developer from the wafl I believe was boekhorst. That didn't end so well either.

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