Yo right the Game, I agree with that, was just trying to getthe thread back to something of interest rather than that 10 minutes of la-la land between Synbad and verbs.

$400000 is very expensive for a loose man in defence.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

All will be revealed in a couple of weeks, chaps. Expect something quite special.

I just hope Fevola doesn't have to play full back during the 2006 season. We need him at full forward.

Bainuzz, you misunderstand 'the point'.. The point is they are crap considering what theyre getting and wouldnt it be nice to see them be able to stand looking at themselves in the mirror and saying"I DID EVERYTHING POSSIBLE FOR THE CLUB AND MYSELF AS A FOOTBALLER ,WHEN WE NEEDED IT MOST!"

Thats what id like to see....

I know theyre crap! and have been... but thats because they have chosen a life of being mediocre (but taken the money).
Do you see the difference of what im saying and what you think i am saying?

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Yeah got it. The difficulty is that no player will walk away from that money you know that as do I. Unless you're Ozzie Jones and have been on Anti Depressants since you could walk. The players employ little flower managers to do that for them, in all honesty have you ever been in a job where you weren't maybe putting in 100% but still taken your pay home every month? I know I have.

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Forgotten, but not gone

I dont expect them to walk away .. i know ours wouldnt.... they have been bought up in a different culture.. the Eliott one.

I do expect Lance to stay back at training and do goal kicking practice with the kids...same with Kouta... same with ALL of them.. Fev and Stevens too..

Because the blokes like Kouta Lance Campo didnt.. (Campo and Lance are the worst of the lot)... when Stevens came to the club he just ran off too.. and then Fev kicks a few goals?? well then he is doing it too....

They think they have made it.. they dont believe they need to be doing the extra curiculum stuff..

Now go to StKilda and take a peek at Hamill and Harvey...

Or Essendon* at Hird...

And i bet big Bazza at Sydney...

That does two things.. it demonstrates there is no class system at the club and mong the players.. and most of all it promotes bonding and work ethic.. (AKA STANDARDS)...

They do the bare minimum...

The players that dont are the kids..... but then.. under this lot of footballers leading the way.. as soon as they think they have made it they will run straight up the tunnel too.

STANDARDS... we dont have any!!!!

They dont come from your Livos and Wiggins or Teagues.. they come from the top!!!

There is a pretend top at Carlton... its there but its not really there!!!!

Biut when it comes to money negotiations you can bet your bottom dollar there is a standard at Carlton... a very high one....!!!!

I want them to put their hand up not out!!!

The money will come.. they will all be comfortable.. the club will look after them..
..... lets see them look after the club and each other.. as well as us!!!

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You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Carlton knew what they were getting when they signed these blokes. They knew they weren't getting the "I'll stay after training and take 100 shots at goal with the new kid on the block type player"

Of course it would be better if these blokes did that, it would be better for the present and it would be better for the future. But they don't, so get assistant coaches in who will kick goals with them after training.

The difficulty that Elliot was confronted with, and I can't believe I'm defending him by the way, was that he couldn't let these guys go, so he signed them up, imagine the outcry if Carlton let Kouta go, or Lance, or SOS or Braddles, because they wanted too much? So he paid out shiteloads of money to keep them, and then thought he was smart enough to cover it up, stupid, and we all know the effect it had.

They continue to re sign Lance though, long after Elliot, they re-signed Fevola to big money, why did they do that if they aren't setting the example they should be?? Becuase they can play footy and they are better value to us, with their limitations, than not. Maybe the money is too high, but it isn't like we've got a heap of blokes stepping up who should be getting that money.

If Stevens stops or Fev stops doing what they should because of other blokes then that is more of a reflection on them than the guys who have been at the club for longer and are known quantities, with their limitations well documented.

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Forgotten, but not gone

See i believe that falls back onto standards Bainuzz.
If i were at a club id like to think i would stay back with the kids.
I know if i stayed back the kids would have to stay back at practice their defficiencies.

How stupid would Eddie Betts look if he walked off and Kouta/ Campo/Lance and Stevens were still out there?
He wouldnt do it.. what he might do is walk over to Kouta and ask for advice on reading the play...or endurance.

Hartlett might walk over to Lance and ask him if they can have a goal kicking comp....

Walker and Stevens might go for a few laps around the park together to work on their endurace as both will have a big part to play in the midfield this year.. who knows? the extra time together might see them click better on the field???

It all boils down to CARING ENOUGH...

Caring about improving and going somewhere.. that should translate onto the field.

Have you thought that over the last few years some of our blokes havent cared out there????

Well if they cared about their preparation away from a game they would certainly care about what they deliver on it.. for the club, each other and thmselves.

Thats what happens at other clubs....

The Walkers dont only train with the Betts and the Wiggos....

Its a team... and that team belongs to a club.. and by definition a club means all embracing .

Youre right Bainuzz, you cant teach an old dog new tricks but you can teach a new one bad habits.....

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Absolutely agree with you, which is pretty [REDACTED] up right there.

I would be far happier with the culture of the club if this was happening there is no doubt about it at all. The problem is, and i guess what I'm trying to say is that Lance in particular, has been re signed by the current administration, knowing that he is not that sort of bloke.

Maybe that's why Carlton didn't fight that hard for Campo??

It's also easier to have that sort of culture at a club like St Kilda where they are on the way up. Try it when you've won a handful of games in four seasons, those nice to have things disappear pretty quick.

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Forgotten, but not gone

Bainuzz, i reckon i went to about 10 training sessions when we were a gun side.
Ive also been to countless sessions when weve been shit!!!

Ive handled staff.. i can sniff out people who dont have any pride in their environment or take it for granted.
Our problem is we have had a few of those over the last few years.

Coaching might be part of the blame.. but i know for a fact that with all his problems... the coach does give it 110%

How many of that senior group can say the same i wonder?
They might wish they had another coach?
He probably wishes he had another group too.,...!!!

But he does give it 110% plus each and every time he has anything to do with the club...


My problem with the players we have had over the last few years is they dont care!!!.. they have been quick to take the money but they dont care about the club or the kids.

Andrew Walker and all the kids we have had drafted in over the last few years have been dudded by a stinking culture.

They havent really had the torch handed to them the way those that should have had handed that torch passed on...

Its actually sad to see.

I do try and look at other clubs train too..

You can see the clubs that have the right senior players in place and you can see howe things happen differently.

It doesnt take Einstein to see our \s are ripping us off.. and our kids.

The kids might not see it because they dont know any better.. theyre new to this life thing.. they were at home before now getting looked after by their parents.. they just dont know any better.

I see it tho.. its gut wrenching!!!

Its been my pet hate for three years!!!

And i know why we never had kids coming through the system over the years.. why every other club had kids that were developed and ours wernt..

Our club preferred senior players .

Our senior players have no idea what to do with so many kids...

The good bit is were recruiting the right types.. and they will do it alone.. and the ones that do make it .. and i think were on the right track.. will turn this club around...

No thanks to the Koutas and Campos Lances..

I hope the Fevs and Stevens recognise what needs to be done..

And i hope Kouta can see it along with Lance....and if they can.. we will go forward more quickly!!!

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As I said mate, couldn't agree more that this should be happening. Could not agree with you more. I guess all I'm trying to say it Lance and Kouta were re signed, knowing their limitations, so we can't expect them to all of a sudden change.

If you have to show people how to do it, or threaten them into doing it, then the point is lost. Maybe the guys had it too easy too quickly, Kouta, Campo and Lance were all young when they played in very successful sides, I wonder if Sticks and Braddles did it for them? If they did, then Lance etc owe it to the kids now to pass that on.

If they had that sort or mentoring, but aren't passing it on then that's just wrong. Not sure if Diesel stuck around much when he played? And I'm asking rather than making a point.

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Forgotten, but not gone

Bainuzz, my point is its just common sense and a sense of responsibility.
This club lacks it by the spadefulls.


It will return but not with these blokes.

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Whitnall's 2005 according to Inside Carlton

Rd 1 v Roos. No votes. Played forward.
Rd 2 v Bombers. 39 votes. Played forward, kicked 4.4.
Rd 3 v Pies. No votes. Played forward.
Rd 4 v Port. 16 votes. Played back.
Rd 5 v Fremantle. No votes. Can't remember.
Rd 6 v Hawks. 4 votes. Can't remember.
Rd 7 v Tigers. 4 votes. Started forward, then back.
Rd 8 v Cats. 8 votes.
Rd 9 v Melbourne. 4 votes.
Rd 10 v Crows. 0 votes. Played back.
Rd 11 v Swans. 40 votes. Played forward for 3 quarters and almost won the game. Went into ruck in last quarter.
Rd 12 v Lions. 34 votes. Can't remember.
Rd 13 v Doggies. 0 votes.
Rd 14 v Eagles. 0 votes.
Rd 15 v saints. 0 votes. Played back.
Rd 16 v Dockers. 36 votes. Played forward, then back.
Rd 17 v Hawks. 36 votes. Played back.
Rd 18 v Richmond. 38 votes. Played back on Richardson and then Stafford.
Rd 19 v Port. 7 votes. Played back.
Rd 20 v Pies. 37 votes. Can't remember.
Rd 21 v Bombers. 26 votes. Played back.
Rd 22 v Roos. 21 votes. Played back.

'Lance Whitnall had an excellent second half of the season. he polled 201 of his otal 350 votes in the last seven rounds of the season, polling in all seven matches'.

I have a lot of sympathy for those who quote the bNicholls results to back up arguments, but also for those that say when you come last all you have to do is get a kick to get a vote. Look up above and other than games v Sydney and Essendon*, Whitnall got his votes playing back.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

The rd 17 game is an interesting one

Whitnall had 16 kicks, 9 handballs, 11 marks

His 'opposing' loose man in defence, Danny Jacobs had 14 kicks, 17 handballs, 13 marks

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Danny Jacobs????

Really????

Is he good????

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Is that Lances fault?

The Game..

I think the point thats been made is any Numpty can look good playing that role....

GET HIM TO HOLD CHF DOWN FOR A SEASON!!!.. crash and bash packs!!!... open them up for others to run into... exert some physicality onto the opposition.... hold his ground in a pack contest...

You know??? The kind of stuff other CHF do when theyre on 500k for 4 years and a further 400k for the next 2.. and their supporters talk about them as if theyre "superstars" as one of us did.. a couple of days ago...

If he is just another 27 year old around the club for nine years.. he has never really been fit.. he has been paid very well..and there is no real position for him.. then whats the point about debating how fantastic he is??????
Danny Jacobs did a similar thing that day.. (only better).. you dont see Hawthorn supporters talk about Jacobs as if he is GOD!!!...

Lance has along way to go to be a very good player.. currently he is just going... thats it!!.. and thats because were using younger kids usually around 22 or younger to play the difficult roles.. where youd want to see Lance playing them.. but he isnt good enough!!!.. so he gets compared to the Jason Clokes and Danny Jacobs of this world..because he is more or less that kjind of player.. unless were fooling around with fractions here...!!!

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I know exactly what he was saying just wondering if it is Lance's fault or maybe Kouta's or Campo's. Couldn't be anyone else could it.

Gypsy curse?

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Love Cricket? Love me

We are paying and have been paying Jonothan Brown, Warren Tredrae, Barry Hall, Pavlich money to Lance and have not been seeing similar results...thats the facts...our CHF isnt as good as the best going around but we still pay big money and then have to find a spot for him as loose man down back because he cant get a kick up forward. Agreed we cant get the ball to him in a decent regular fashion but blokes like Brown can get their own ball regardless and thats whe they get the big bucks. If Lance was getting 200k for doing what he is doing then fair enough...but he is at the Blue Chip end of the money scale and not delivering Blue Chip results...any reasonable person would question why we are paying that type of money for the return we are getting.

I blame the club for re-signing him on 400K a year..absurd....the club appeared to have a reasonable offer from Melbourne and should have taken it...best for both parties...where is lance at?..well he wont be at CHF once Kennedy is fit and firing and 400K a year to have Lance play as sweeper down back is money down the drain....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

You know the Game???

Were a pretty young and inexperienced side because the experienced players who should have helped carry the can didnt want to.. they preffered to leave..its a mentality that goes through the club...

Kouta wishes Campo all the best but by Campo not rolling up his sleeves and going for a PERCEIVED easier ride.. he leaves Kouta on his own... Allen did the same thing.. all these blokes are selfish.. and its a cutural thing.
Because for the last 5 years none of them wanted to do what was required they made it harder on each other and the kids...

Thats my point one.

My point two is this..

My family is split up between stKiulda supporters and Carlton supporters (mostly) the ratio is about 4 Carlton 1 StKilda...

For YEARS,.. i have heard them talk about the Everitts and the Halls.. and the Locketts.. and the Elphinstones.. The Shanahans... The Dunnes..The Loewes.. The Winmars.. The Harveys.. The Burkies... blah blah blah.... it goes on and on....
Some of these players are legends.. some were one season wonders and others were plain old hacks..

With all these false dawns and bullshit belief that my cousins had for years i used to laugh at them...

Why??... because they didnt have the culture in place to every win anything!!!... no matter who they got the club was unprofessional... the players didnt give a rats arse.. (minus a couple)...and sometimes he would talk about particular players like they were guns...!!!.. well i knew they could play the game but i also knew for as long as they had overated big fish in small pond mentalities my cousins wernt going anywhere...

I would always have the bragging rights when it came to Carlton / StKilda...

Got whipped by the coach???... well thats ok.. the players got together and turfed him out!!!...

One good season?? Well you become a legend at StKilda forever...

Bad character??... fat and lazy??? wouldnt train???... well the supporters loved you even more!!!

Why???Cos they had nothing to cheer for and the standards just kept slipping till Rod Owen becomes a star at the club.. who cares hes 16 and a plonk???... he shows glimpses...!!!

Elphinstone???Two good season has enough...wants to go to Richmond.. (Hack footballer but played for Victoria a game or two cos he had a few good games)... now all the players and all the supporters get together and see him while he is performing for a cover band and guilt trip him into coming back!!!...the end result??Elphinstone plays another 2 shit years at the club and disappears...

The point to this???

No standards.....!!!!

Elphinstone returned to the club but because he was begged and pampered he didnt even do the basics.....

No standards..!!!

The shoe is on the other foot now...

Were the ones that love and support No standards.. because a shit Lance is better than no Lance.. because to us.. Lance has been part of simething semi succesful... dont worry about the fact that the last time he produced EFFECTIVELY was 5 years ago...we have Lance.. he was part of 1999...We have Kouta he used to be a champion..blah blah blah...they get the roles where we create for them just to play the game.. (one a floating half back flanker- and the other is an extractor... cant do anything else but he can get the ball out).

We should go for a rule change...like in baseball.. you want a guy who can hit the ball??.. u call him in during the game just for that and he then troddles off... or the special teams in gridiron...

those days are over!!!
the teams going places have their senior players playing fair dinkum roles.. and the kids floating off them...

Dogs???Brad Johnson.. Luke Darcey .. Chris Grant.. Scotty West.. etc,

Pick any team and thats the way it is....

With us.. were just happy to have has been doing semi roles ... because we have NO STANDARDS as a club.. as supporters and they as pro athletes.

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