The problem we have is Wiggins and Livo aren't kids anymore. They should be making up the core of the team with Stevens, Waite and Fevola. Look at our 22-26 year old players and compare them with other clubs.

yep, really struggling with that mid tier of players. but thats one of the reasons why we came last. its a bigger problem than just these two. it extends to .. what, Prenders, Sporn, Longmuir, Chambers, etc. etc. We've got 10 to 12 average players on the list who if they don't come through soon will no longer be there.

as synbad said livo just needs to hold down a spot for him to be part of the solution. livo doesnt have as much competition for a spot yet but will get chances again in 2006.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

Agreed Athorn, I can't work out why hardly any of these guys drafted at the same period have failed to come through. Everone blames ShaneO but that doesn't sit well with me. They were the best players available at the time, I think it has more to do with our development of these guys. Sporn has all the tools to be a very good player but he took 10 steps backwards last year.

This club never had an idea on development.
It wasnt about bad recruiting alone....
We did recruit Leoncelli (not a champion but he played close to 200 games at Melbourne)...
Senior players shared the ball.. it was part of the culture.
A bit like the Australian test side.. once youre in you stay in...
The club had no faith in kids.. so it topped up!!!...

When we did finally get them we had no idea what to do with them...

Were still struggling in the coaching stakes compared to other clubs.. at least we brought in Daniher and Dempsey.. which is better than not having them....

We dont have an infrastraucture to develop.
The focus is purely on winning premierships..succeeding.. but its not going to happen in the current state..
Exectations wont translate to success unless we help the kids and do everything possible to mould them into tomorrows stars!!

The older players have a role in this.. every bit as much as the footy department

Standards need to be addressed and modern day sporting professionalism must be the order of the day....

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F..k hell. By all means, bag a player when he is not performing. Lance Whitnall got back to some form in 2005 and was top 3 in the best and fairest.

At times your comments reek of double standards and are hypocritical. You defend livo on one post by saying the ball is delivered perfectly to the forward on too many occasions but lance is supposed to dominate when the ball is delivered poorly to him (and likewise fevola).

I'm not a fan of whitnall and will be watching him closely and hoping for a good year (as he is as inconsistent as the weather forecast) but he deserves a pat on the back for how he turned his year around.

Just curious though Synbad, When will Lance have earnt his praise from you? 100 goals in a year?

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

You will put your 5 cents worth in anywhere you please will you Synbad ?
I'll tell you what Big Fella.Your comments RE Lance are only worth 5 cents and no more so you may as well go ahead.

You reckon we are easily pleased ? Maybe we are.BUT YOU SYNBAD ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!

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All my dangerous friends

Mickstar , get rid of the blood sucking bludgers and ill be happy.
Campos gone.. Lance next..and if Fev doesnt pull his finger out he can go too.. Kouta of course should retire at the end of next season..
And we start again.. PROPERLY!!!
]
With kids that care and have a common sense of responsibility to the club.

Hey id be happy... VERY HAPPY!!!..

Not interested in names... give me players that want to hammer out their own name from scratch into the clubs history....
And Mick???Happy new year to you and yours.

Number 1 Blue.. Lance needs to have4 standards for his younger team mates to follow.
Being a porker cos he doesnt care isnt good enough with the amount of kids we have currently... and the lack of senior players for them to look up to.

Thats what i want.

What do you want???

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Synbad, why should kouta retire at the end of the season? I really don't get you sometimes either.

Kouta will help rather than hinder the progress of our young group of players. It's unhealthy for a side to have no experience to help along the young players. They need someone to look up to, get advice etc and kouta can give that and much more.

Unfortunately for you Synbad, Kouta is hoping to play for another 2-3 years. You'll have to be hoping for a knee reco.

I really like how you think your the wordsmith on everything though. IMO you do have some good points on certain things but then you go totally irrational.

That is what I don't understand. Do you wan't a whole team of 19yr olds playing without no experience. Being knocked around from pillar to post with no experience to help the kids through the tough times.

If You were a Hawks man, Would you wan't Spider Everitt to retire and would you want Crawford to hang up his boots.

You need to be competitive as a side to set the team in good stead for the coming years. I'm very excited by our young kids, and I believe from next year, we will be a competitive side and players like Kouta will only help push the team forward.

Thats what I want!

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Lance will move up the all time goal kicking list.

And all the best tou you and yours Syn.
You are making far too much sense for me to argue Synbad.
And i and everybody on this site want what you want for the club.
But sorry,i am old school Carlton i will be stuffed if i will cop floggings and say we are building for the future.I am confidant and cocky.Everytime The Carlton Football Club takes the field i expect to win.I believe we can win.
Your style of thinking is a copout !
Its the same style of loser thinking that kept the likes of StKilda,Footscray,NthMelb etc etc used to have in the old days.We didnt win but we gave em' a fright.We lost the game but won the fight.

That style of thinking is not for me Synbad.I am old school Carlton and always will be.Arrogant,bombastic,and belligerant at all times.Never,ever concede to the opposition.There to win and win alone it is for me Syn.

Phew !!!! im puffed out.By the way,see you round the traps big fella.

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All my dangerous friends

See Mickstar... this is how i see things.
For the last 4 or 5 years we have been shit.
Whats taken us 120 years and then 35 years to build has been brought down over the last ten years.. and especially 5.
Over the last 5 years our players have played with a lack of professionalism.There is an apathy towards the footy club that can be looked at as a lack of standards. A lack of care!!!...

We have players that are choosing to live in the past..they prepare themselves as if theyre living in the eighties.. or seventies.. theres a stench of greed for money.. there is an absolute lack of sense of responsibility and accountability.

My great club hasnt just fallen back to the pack.. its actually lagging behind.

The custonians of our great history for our club cant even get themselves fit to play the game at the hiughest level. The standards they set for the kids coming through are poor. They lack leadership and instead of taking the main roles they prefer to do the running past for the handballs... play loose man across half back or just not bother chasing... just shuffling their feet in the background when they dont have the ball... (see Kouta)..

On the other hand they want big contracts and demand to be treated as if theyre elite footballers .

Im not an agnostic when it comes to Lance (lets talk about Lance here).. im a non believer!!!.. maybe bordering on a Doubting Synbad.. i know Lance has run his race in todays game.. he is too slow.. he isnt tall enough.. he doesnt prepare himself well enough..he cant jump...lazy etc.

Its ok to tell Houla off when Houla shirks a contest but he should look at himself for his lack of preparation....!!!!

Im not after Lance to feed 2000 people with a couple of fish.. or bring Lazarus back to life... or cure the lepers...All i want from Lance is to uphold Carlton standards. Standards that have been set by previous custodians of our club that played with a hand sawn off in a workplace accident.. or the singleminded winners attitude of the dominator... the leadership towards his team mates of Sticks.. the courage of Hunter...the freakish ability of Jezza..the willingness to take the challenge head on like Harmes.. the selflesness of Dean Rice..

All those blokes had a standard to play at.. a standard that was put in place by the dozens of others that came before them...
Weve been crap before .. but NO Carlton team has ever embarassed us the way this one has.. Weve been shit because we have NO STANDARDS!!!... standards are set by the players elite..
Never before have the players at the top of the Carlton tree let the club down so far as the ones that have presided over it over the last 4 or 5 years..

Tonight i watched the First Knight..ive seen a heap of those King Arthur movies.. and ive never ever seen a Sir Lancelot that resembles Shrek.. except for the one that some moron of a commentator called "Ärise Sir LAncelot"..about 6 years ago... its adulation like that that makes these blokes sit on their arses.. do the bare minimum and just as we think we have hit rock bottom .. we find there is more to go... were in a vacuum of a spiral downwards without standards.
Lance cant look anyone in the face and say he has done everything possible to help this club not get buried in quicksand.. none of our leaders can...

Yet because these players were once part of a succesful Carlton we turn a blind eye to their rape and cheating os this club.

Im sick of them!!!... i know they cant deliver!!!.. they should piss off...!!!!.. we should skip them and move straight through to the next generation where there is HOPE!!..

These blokes are holding back our kids because where we desire experience they prefer to take the fringe roles.. run past players.. loose players across half back.. and unaccountable players who put pressure on the kids up the ground.. who have to mind their own players plus the players that should be manned by others.

This just contributes to a quickening of the drowning in quicksand.. its actually not quicksand its shit!!!

Want me to support these idiots???

No way!!!

Let them do more than the basics and help the kids and i will support them!!!...
I want to know when the last time was that our senior players showed passion!!!.. real passion !!!
Whats so arrogant about supporting people pissing on you and bleeding you dry???

If you were old school.. youd know we had winners.. not losers!!!

I think youre confused Mickstar...

Dreamin!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Anything groundbreaking and refreshing in that post? Nope!
You might as well just C & P some of your other posts to save time.

This is more interesting and well written.

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=241780

Ye sit is better written but its all wrappoed up in sugar. and theres a great big red bow on it... and we know how it went belly up from that point on...

So if you like bedtime stories before sleepies.. thats an excellent quote.
Because we suffered the least number of injuries strategid and otherwise... and came last !!!..

Do you believe in the Easter Bunny??...

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I believe in Mrs K.

I also believe that Collo and Denis don't suffer fools and wouldn't have re-signed Lance if he wasn't up to it or important in helping this club move forward.I have to.

Whether that's through trading him next year for an early pick or Lance playing forward so Kennedy, Hartlett, Fisher, Waite, etc. can develop without getting the opposition's second best defender.Then Lance's re-signing will be worth it in the long run and to Whitnall's credit he at he didn't cut and run when he knew another club was interested in him.

We just can't afford to bottom out again given the hit our "brand" would take and the financial loss that would follow it.If this was a large part of the reason we re-signed Lance then I'm glad.

I just want to see Lance played forward for the whole year without having to plug gaps in defence because Livo, Thornton and Norman weren't playing in the one team.

I don't want to see another Carlton win a spoon again no matter what the "benefits" it brings to the club.And the odds of that happening would shorten if Lance wasn't there, because he adds badly needed depth and the experience the league's youngest side just can't afford to throw away.

I find it very interesting that Jake Edwards doesn't seem to agree with Synbad but then what would he know, he's just a young kid who hasn't been lucky enough to train with Hird, Cousins, Hall, Voss, etc.

Right?

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=241764

When Edwards finishes his career at Carlton and is part of a team of kids coming through together who will win 3 flags.. he will know it didnt happen because of blokes like Lance....

You obviously think we will make the eight because we have Lance in our team right????and he kind of is a bit like Plugger... so Lance goes into the forward line.. CHF do you reckon???... ok hes our CHF .. and we wont win a wooden spoon.. and we will come where? second last??... or the eight??...

Where is this very young team plus Lance and Kouta going to end up Juzzy???

Its ok to close your eyes and your mind to reality... but sooner or later you have to open them and walk over to the milkbar for milk and bread .. and youll probably take a peek at the back page of the hun... and see where still miles away.. and Lance is still overweight and Kouta (even though he is a better trainer than the guys Edwqrds trained with at the Western Jets)... still doesnt follow his man... which makes Edwards apprentiship much harder.. cos not only does he have to get into sync with AFL footy but he has to look after his man and Koutas...not to mention Lances..

The good news is Campo is gone and our midfield will have stiffened up much more defensively...

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One thing i am not Syn. is confused.I look at everything with an open and objective mind.
That is more than you can say.You have an obsessive compulsive disorder that is completely out of control RE.Lance.No matter what the subject,you obsessivly.compulsivly drag Lance into it.You are so confused you cant see the differance
You talk about leaders Synbad.Without doubt Synbad,you are a real leader of TC and a lot of people look to you for guidance.A lot of TCer's dote on every utterance you make.And that is fine by me as you post some brilliant stuff.Generally cool,clear,and concise.But when it comes to Lance you are completely over the top and just dont know when to pull up.Why dont you Synbad show leadership and try to take a balanced look at Whinall's contribution to our footy club.Sure there is bad and ugly in there,but there is also plenty of good.
Kind regards,Mick.

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All my dangerous friends

Mick.. im not a a leader on TC.. im a poster.

I see these guys as a reason to why were shit!!!.. so i just go to town on them.. i tee off on them...
Not just because they arent up to it on the field.I take what they ask for playing at our club into consideration.. what i see at training.. how they lead (Kouta against Jon Brown was a digrace).. i look to see if they have done their absolute best leaving NO stone unturned to help the club and the kids...

I then look at senior players at other clubs...

I see a difference.... a HUGE difference!!!

Lance can redeem himself... all he needs to do is get professional and act with the responsibilty we need to go forward..

Every club has professional senior players except us...

Lance on 400k to stay??... well look around and see what 400k will buy you at any other club...
Im not talking just that he is average on the field.. and that he cant play a main position.. but instead we hide him in pretend spots.. but his preparation and him being a yardstick for the kids...

You cannot possible point to any part of Lances make up and tell Walker.. i want you to be more like him!!!!.... can you???
If so what part of Lance can russell or betts.. or murph emmulate??

I look at stuff like that Mick.. you look at 2000...!!!

2000 was a lifetime ago...

Of course im unhappy with him.. but he doesnt make it easy on himself does he???

He gets paid to have anything to do with the Blues.. i pay!!!
I want more!!!.... much much more!!!!!!!!!!

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Abso-bloody-lutely 100% correct !!

We can't afford to carry deadwood or high-priced nancy-boys, they all have to go if we are to become a super-power once again. We have nearly had the full cleanout we needed 3 years ago but weren't able to due to the draft penalties. This meant that some players got a 'superannuation' contract when it was never ever warranted.

Pagan's coaching success is based on building a list from the ground up, anyone who can't or won't cut it gets the chop. I expected others to be shown the door but obviously they have been retained due to contractual obligations.

Kouta can retire at the end of next season and Lappin the year after. Fevola & Whitnall should be traded at the completion of the 2006 season whilst they still have trade value. Others like Bannister, McGrath, Chambers, Sporn, Wiggins, Livingston, Davies & Prendergast need to be re-assessed after what they have done in 2006 and a decision reached (I'd bet on at least 4 of them to be moved elsewhere).

Add another injection of 5-6 quality youths to the base of players we have recruited over the last couple of drafts and we will be ready to start the long haul up the ladder.

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

I think Lappin has another 3 or 4 years at a very high level.I was rapt to see him stay.. and he should have played his cards better he would have come away with more.
Campo will not make one iota of difference.Glad hes pissed off!!!...

ow what i want is for our more senior players to just bring in someething with them when they come in through the front gates,


Over the last few years they have left much of it behind ...

Average they may be footy wise... but if they bring in some passion.. some work ethic, some pride etc they will contribute alot!!!...


If they can all come in with a high care factor this year.. even if we come last.. we will gain alot of out of this year.
The kids need to be primed..!!!

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Sounds good Synbad and Sheik.If it all unfolds as you guys suggest then i will be wrapped.Trouble is,it aint a perfect world,and things never seem to go as you plan...........OK ! we get rid of all these troublesome characters as you suggest.You trying to tell me that all these new guys to the club are of such impeccable character and are beyond reproach.No,you cant gaurentee it and i bet my you no whats that there is a fair share of rebels in there waiting to break out.Its plain unrealistic to expect 100 percent perfection.You will always have your fair share of wayward types.You just cant chop there heads off eveytime.You have to deal with these types and make the most of what you have got.
Besides,having the place full of head prefect types would be boring beyond belief.I prefer a good cross section of all differant types.Just as in life really.

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All my dangerous friends