You don't think he is doing pretty well considering the injuries he has had that have been the direct result of other players. It's not like he was injury prone.

Look, if Lance was paid $250k over the last 4 years .. and he had kept himself fit with ALL his limitations i dont think he would be such a target.
At the end of the day in that time we have had TWO WOODEN SPOONS.. and the people leading the club must take some responsibility to where were at.

You cant collect $500,000 plus and be unfit or ineffectual.

Campo is another example..
Kouta is another.


It just trickles down the through the playing group ...

If these players showed something... anything to the kids coming through instead of bitching about team orders wed be better off.

The kids like Waite Betts Walker dont know anything about AFL when they come to a club.. they dont know whats expected.. they dont know what AFL coaches are like...the only thing they know is some of the players(because most times they arent Carlton supporters).. and whether Pagan is a good a coach or not should make no difference to the kids as they enter the club.
They shouldnt know any better...

It gets really tricky if the coach has been signed up for a number of years... and the senior players dont do whats expected and instead moan and bitch!!!.. *softcocks*... then the kids who are really doing an apprentiship start questioning within their minds if the coach can coach.

Worse still.. because these overpaid bludges are LAZY,... as well as poisoning the minds of the kids and not setting standards at training and around the club (if theyre not up to it on the field)..theyre bludging...!!!... which means that Walker/Wiggins/Sporn has to leave his man to chase Campos or Koutas who have been allowed to run free... which leaves their own man attended.. and confidence gets shot.. and the structure just gets eroded.
So then the kids arent coming along the way youd hope.. but its not their fault!!!.. its the fault of the players sucking the money and using the coach or ënjoyment" as an excuse instead of rolling up their sleeves and doing what theyre paid to do.

Thats why i want those blokes out..

Theyre letting down the club and theyre letting down their younger teammates because theyre deflecting the blame elsewhere!!!!

Campo is a disgrace... Lance better pull his finger out.. and Kouta should retire after next year.
He clearly has no fire in the belly.

Nothing worse than seeing overpaid players running around with no fire in the belly for a contest.

Especially when you watch the likes of Carazzo Walker Waite Fisher slugging their guts out.

i dont want them to just say "Ive had it im not going to try cos noone else is"

I know in three years we will be back big time...!!!

I dont want the kids tainted by the poison of selfishness and laziness in the meantime.

Glad were bringing in young kids with a sense of passion and work ethic.,

Beats the spoilt old chumps anytime..

So little time, so much to disagree with. Gees Synbad not sure if you're making these statements coz you actually believe them but I reckon you're a bit off the mark with a few of them.

Kouta is not unfit OR ineffectual. And to say he lacks fire to me is just plain wrong. Again you seem to think that a guy has to run around the field pumping his fists to have fire, Kouta has never displayed much on field emotion, maybe that's not the sort of leader we need but that's the leader the club appointed. Even with dodgy knees he is still right in the middle when the heat is on dishing out handballs with two blokes hanging off him.

To say it doesn't matter whether Pagan is a good coach for the kids or not is just plain wrong. Of course it matters, whilst the senior players should set an example the fostering of youth and their assoicated talent is surely in the top one or two responsibilities of the coach?

I'd rather have one Kouta than 5 Wiggins mate, I was holwed down by one and all when I said Wiggins wasn't up to it, I was told he'd be a 200 game player for our club etc etc. Yeah he works hard and has a great attitude but his basic disposal and decision making under pressure is shit. Sporn has been given lots of chances and just hesn't taken any sort of step up. Walker the just is still out, but I think he'll he right.

If we're bringing it back to money just don't forget how much Dennis is on either.

Lance would play for a bottle of beer and a bag of peanuts a week, surely?

Has Kouta had a better last four years than those guys???

Three years???

Two years????

See we can get down to an individual game and say "and thats why he desreves the money he is on"

And i say to you.. "and thats why were last and have been the worst performed team over thosde four years"

Were carrying guys for a long long longt time who are on alot alot alot alot of money..
and havent performed!!!

You're kidding aren't you? Have " we " been carrying Kouta have we. I assume that you will also tag Lance the same. Can you let us know who else we have been carrying?

If Kouta was to win a B & F and Lance lead the comp in marks next year you probably still wouldn't be happy.


This isnt, as you state, the reason we have been the worst performing team in the last four years, far from it. You need to look past the money issue.

Take a look at our recruiting for starters. Three first round choices in 2000 draft produced Livingston, Wiggins and Sporn. Do you not think that these players have been carried? Maybe they along with the likes of the recruiting of Eccles, Merrington, Plunkett, Gallagher, Clarke amongst others may be the reason or that we didn't have any succession plan in place to replace SOS, Bradles or Ratten two or three years before they were going to retire. Maybe these are the reasons we have been the worst performed team in the last four years.

If you really think that statement is true, then i really think you know alot less about football than the little I already thought that you knew.

The Game is right about some Carlton supporters being more feral than other clubs.

I can't wait until we are a great team again and it will take time. But some may need to let their anger aside and look at the bigger picture. It's not one or two players that are the reason we are where we are at, it's a long succession of poor decisions and recruiting.

I know when I have a whinge to my mate about the state of Carlton he always says " At least you have seen 4 flags, I've seen none"

You're kidding aren't you? Have " we " been carrying Kouta have we. I assume that you will also tag Lance the same. Can you let us know who else we have been carrying?

If Kouta was to win a B & F and Lance lead the comp in marks next year you probably still wouldn't be happy.


This isnt, as you state, the reason we have been the worst performing team in the last four years, far from it. You need to look past the money issue.

Take a look at our recruiting for starters. Three first round choices in 2000 draft produced Livingston, Wiggins and Sporn. Do you not think that these players have been carried? Maybe they along with the likes of the recruiting of Eccles, Merrington, Plunkett, Gallagher, Clarke amongst others may be the reason or that we didn't have any succession plan in place to replace SOS, Bradles or Ratten two or three years before they were going to retire. Maybe these are the reasons we have been the worst performed team in the last four years.

If you really think that statement is true, then i really think you know alot less about football than the little I already thought that you knew.

The Game is right about some Carlton supporters being more feral than other clubs.

I can't wait until we are a great team again and it will take time. But some may need to let their anger aside and look at the bigger picture. It's not one or two players that are the reason we are where we are at, it's a long succession of poor decisions and recruiting.

I know when I have a whinge to my mate about the state of Carlton he always says " At least you have seen 4 flags, I've seen none"

just logic to question the returns we are getting on our investments....

If Kouta was to win a B & F and Lance lead the comp in marks next year you probably still wouldn't be happy.


This isnt, as you state, the reason we have been the worst performing team in the last four years, far from it. You need to look past the money issue.

"

Which brings me back to ...If you asked these blokes about preperation...Do you think they have done everything in their power to prepare themselves and their younger team mates to the best of their abilities???

Answer me that...!!!!

Well given that both Kouta and Lance have not had much in the way of preseason training due to injuries over the past few years ( Koutas re-occuring knee and Lances knee and shoulder injuries that were caused by other players) thier ability to prepare properly has been pretty much hampered.


you can go cheer on and wave your scalf around to Kouta and Lance

I have never understood why anyone would go to the footy and not support the players on the field on the day, let alone go out of thier way to bag them........ seems a bit pointless to me.

Pay peanuts you get monkeys.

There's only so far the whole solid work ethic can get a club, you have to have stars and you have to pay them well. When Kouta and Lance et al where signed to big deals I'm sure 99% of supporters where just pleased to have those guys signed up. The player isn't even involved in negotiations anymore, he just gets a phone call from some F@%&#! like the little nonce with the ponytail telling him what he's earning for the next five years.

Oh and by the way, comparing Livo and Wiggins to the St Kilda crew is pie in the sky.

I have never understood why anyone would go to the footy and not support the players on the field on the day, let alone go out of thier way to bag them........ seems a bit pointless to me.