I reckon we will realise pagans full worth the year after he is gone and some new age young bloke (Ratts) takes over. The players Pagan leaves behind will be very disciplined but probably over Pagan. The young bloke who takes over will be loved by the players ala Roos at South. Flags will then follow.

Merry Xmas Nuzz from Lisa & Jaz.

aloha, Jaz. Merry Christmas to you and the little woman. She loves Moz.

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Forgotten, but not gone

You know what fj, you really need to relax. Nobody said Rocca (Sav) was shit, but the Cloke family are complete bogans, you know it, I know it, we all know it. Read what is said, digest, and respond. It's easy really. get off your high horse.

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Forgotten, but not gone

Yep. Absolutely no doubt about it.

Hypocrit [sic]? hahaha I've got no respect for the guy and his motives and there is no way I wouldn't say it to his face. He'd probably hate me, but to see the way his performance drove down the team and gave me little enjoyment for my membership, well, he doesn't have to like me, because there's probably very few who do like him.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

You are joking right? Otherwise, how sad is that if you are being truthful? At least you are honest about your limitations I guess.

Retardation rather than limitations, I'd say. He knows absolutely nothing about Campo except what he gets off some of TC's rabble rousers and yet he can make statements like the above. But then again, apparently Clem's a historian so I suppose he's weighed up all the evidence with great deliberation. And he knows how to use [sic] to highlight a spelling mistake!!

Back to school, Clem.

Sure am a historian, and I know how to read sources. All sources, judged reliability, judged tone, motive etc. - this includes statements made in the media etc etc.

I don't dislike Hamill in the way that I do Camporeale - simply because the sources lead to a different conclusion. Hamill at least was a hard worker at Carlton and I have to respect that.

It seems there are some TC posters who just like to highlight errors and bag out fellow posters and that's all they do. Well, if that's the way you view the world and other people, then fine, but I respect those that deserve it and well, I'll just ignore those who haven't earnt it. I'm not out here to earn the approval of certain posters, to be the most-liked poster - pfft, I'd be in politics if that was the case.

Make up your own conclusions and write what you want but I stand by what I say, whether you like it is not for me to decide.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Billy Bongo looks at other stuff to make an opinion on Campo.. such as the sacrifices he made.. the way he left the club with his dignity (carpark episode).. how he just sweated blood for our club while he was here and the club didnt look after him... how he achieved his reputation without the hard work of those around him.. how he has been an excellent icon to the younger players in terms of a model...
His fantastic endeavours for the club when he needed him to stand up...
Loyalty when we need it...
Leadership on the track as well as the field.

Campo is an icon.

You know???

You cant judge Campo on what the few say about him.. you just let Campo do the talking.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Is that you Massive

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

CarltonClem wrote:

Like your post CarltonClem. Call me crazy but I trust our clubs future in the hands of experts. I am not an expert, I belive pagan & co are experts!
I'm more than happy to be patient & see how everything unfolds over coming years. I've got a good feeling about our match committee. Obviously others do not!

Nowhere near this level!

The Lance Whitnall in this video is almost unrecogniseable compared to today's version.

Lance Whitnall

The team is unrecognisable compared to today's version.

Lance wasn't and will never be the player to build a team around. He is a player who is limited in some aspects of the game but excels in others, in a good team Lance will be one of the best players most times but when you have a team that struggles to hit there targets he's lack of pace is exploited. Only time will tell if Lance can get back to doing those great things and the same goes for the CFC. I hope they go hand in hand!

Moving forward how about we breed Lance and Cathy Freeman? In 2025 we would have a very ugly superstar

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that early Lance did not need to play the 'possession game'. He ran, covered enormous ground, took pack marks and kicked goals out of his arse.

Perhaps our 'possession' game spoilt that Lance. caused him to take short cuts because that game is built on avoidance.

The style Pagan seems to want is built on wortk ethic, on running, covering and supporting through physical pressure. To play this game Lance must be as fit as he possibly can be.

Can his body do it? He started young but has played many games now and that frame of his has taken a pounding. Can he get it right?

Frankly I do not care to judge Lance the person, I just worry the wear and tear of this game on that body means that Lance may be unable to ever be that mobile again. Perhaps it's an attitude, perhaps it's a body more sore than any of us will know, or a combination.

Lance cannot help his body type (as opposed to condition of that body), so he must do his utmost to control those apsects that he can help. For a time there I thought he was going to be an absolute superstar, he is a good player, in a good side he would be an even better player but I fear he will never be that superstar. I hope I am wrong.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Getting back to Anthony RoccA.
What he does is if youre a midfielder looking at going forward when you look up and see a Collosus standing at CHF you have great confidence in kicking to him.
When you cant see anyone standing our in particular it makes it harder.

The other thing is Malthouse says Rocca has a low fitness base and works HARDER than EVERYBODY else to bring himself to a point where he can EFFECTIVELY play AFL football.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

So you would ignore Camporeale, someone you've never met, know virtually nothing about, have no knowledge of his personal/family life, and who's biggest crime is to have played AFL at the highest level?

Or would you call him Cancereale to his face?

Based on your comments above, you would ignore him, which I hope would be true. If not, that is a much sadder way to view the world and other people as opposed to pointing out errors on an internet forum.

I can't imagine behaving like that towards anyone. Perhaps if some terrible crime had been committed against my family or someone I love.

As for Whitnall, the only reason this dicussion goes on and on is because of how much he earns. He has never won a club championship (as opposed to the name's danny brought up eons ago who each won multiple best and fairests) and as such, whilst always being in the top bracket of players, he has never been an out and out dominant player of the side.

The only reason he comes up for attention is because is one of the highest paid.

It is so easy to blame the player for this, but if you have ever had to negotiate your pay for the work you do, you would know how important it is to get the best deal possible. The Club decides what it thinks is reasonable, and they work it out from there.

Who's fault is this? The player? The Club? The AFL? The media? Player agents? Supporters? Everyone? No-one?

When you negotiate money AWAY from your TEAMATES.. because in a salary cap sistiation thats what youre effectively doing...
You have the responsibility to repay your team mates back with what you have taken out of their mouths.

Campo and Lance havent done that and either has Kouta.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The reason why people like Clem and myself call him The Cancereale and put him under the microscope so critically, is because of the amount of money he earned for us, and what he did in return.

And don't start quoting stats bullshit. 20+ possie games count for nought when 15 of those 20 are easy behind-the-play soft receives.

When OUR club needed him, he went AWL.

So, in a way, he DID do something awful to someone I love. He took what he could, and gave back nothing in return.

Would I call him the Cancereale to his face? Maybe, maybe not, but you can be damn sure I'd let him know what I thought of him, and if all you can do is stand there and fawn over him, you should take a bloody hard look at yourself.

Yes, I admired him in the early years, and up until midway through the 2005 season, I was a staunch defender of him. But what changed that was seeing the way he plays, which did nothing to help the team, only to help his own stats, and seeing that his lack of leadership and petulance on and off the field was damaging the club in a long-term way. No one player is above the club, and him even more so.

Get off your damn high horse, and stop trying to prance about the moral high ground.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

But it's the club's responisibility to split up the pie

See, where the problem is with modern footy is that we have no idea if it's about the jumper or the money any more, and I'm talking about supporters, not players.

Why should I do that?

Because it's getting boring.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.