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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:43 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8185
bondiblue wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Hay, Bondi, I like your post BUT unless we radically change the way we play the game, we will never kick enough goals to win games, whilst leaking goals at the other end.
We had 8 defenders in the defensive fifty tonight but they still managed to kick 165 points against them. That should be impossible BUT we had 2 vs six in our F50, which let them run four players down the ground to upset the defensive setup and kick about 8 goals from inside the square.
The good teams of the current and near future era have a run and stun game plan that is high risk unless you can execute your passes by hand and foot. We don't let our players run, which is against the trend of the game and suicidal in my opinion. On top of that, we insist on the chippy chippy turnover game in our defensive half followed by a kick down the line to a contest. MM invented that in the nineties and we are well past it or should be.
Week after week we watch teams run through the middle of the ground unimpeded. We don't defend the corridor, which in this climate is just plain stupid. Then tonight we saw Adelaide use the boundary as well and we let them do it all the way to the goal line on eight occasions or more.
Who do we pick that will take us up the ladder using the current game style? Another Cripps-type who revels in the contested game footy that is being phased out at the top of the ladder? Or do we look for a high possession ball winner with more outside skills and likes to carry the footy. Someone like SPS used to be as a junior but who now gets the ball and looks to dish it off as fast as possible laterally or backwards perhaps? Maybe we should ditch Pickett and Garlett while we're at it. They love to run and carry and play footy with flair but they don't fit the BB 1990's game style of contested footy and defensive acts. Put Pickett in the Richmond team and see how he goes.
I suggested we get Saad wen he was available and was laughed off the page because he is a spud. Well he seems to go OK at Essendon*** because Essendon*** has discovered (too late for this year) that running payers off the back line down the middle is the way to beat teams who set up a deep zone or flood. Teams like Carlton, for example.
BB plays such a structured game that there is no room in it for Garlett, Pickett, Saad or anybody who wants to run and carry because when they look up, there is never anybody in front of them to kick it to.
So who do we draft at #1? Walsh? Rankine? Smith? Lukosis? Someone else?
Who do we trade for? McGovern? A stoic mark and kick defender? Yep he fits the 90's style of footy we are playing. Get him. Stuff Hunt from Mebourne who just loves to be a 100 metre possession player.
Which FA do we want? Dahlhaus? He likes to run and carry so he's out.

It all comes down to the game plan. Unless we have one that will stack up against Richmond, Collingwood, Melbourne, GWS, Essendon*** and Hawthorn, we might as well consign ourselves to the bottom of the ladder for the next five years. It all comes down to the coach. Unless he can jump us up to about tenth next year on the back of your argument, he's gawn and we have to start another rebuild based on the list he put together to play his style of game.
I find that frightening.


I'm hearing you, just as I heard King question the coaching strategy you describe.
King's comments made me think about my doubts on Bolton as a tactician, but I still don't think that's the problem we need to focus on right now.

I strongly believe Carlton will be a stronger team with a stronger list in 2019 regardless of coach and game plan.
Regardless who is coach I believe next year will see us climb the ladder but not make the Final 8 based on our current list.
I believe that the kids development has been expedited this year with their exposure to AFL footy week in week out.

IMO, no game plan can be executed properly if the players are not fit enough or strong enough to showcase their skills for 4 quarters of AFL.
They are kids. We have 18yo, 19yo, 20yo and 21yo out there. Many of them carrying niggles. They are not ready for AFL but you are suggesting they are and its the game plan which is the problem.

Get the list right, then we will see what we need to do with the coach.
I've heard it a lot that Bolton needs a good tactician by his side, and an old head ala Neil Craig.
I think Bolton knows what foundations he needs to lay and the club has supported him.

The first 15 minutes of the year against the reigning Premiers saw us go up 5 goals to zip, then he had Kennedy do his ankle and Kreuzer go down with injuries....it was down hill or rollercoaster ride (whatever) that followed.

Lets get another preseason into all the kids.
Lets get the the likes of Pickett, Garlett, Cunngham fit for outside speed. Key word being fully fit, not just available.
Lets add Docherty, Williamson, Plowman/Macreadie in the backline
Lets add Kreuzer, Fisher, Dow in the midfield
Lets add Walsh Shiel and Setterfield in our midfield
Lets get a McGovern into the forwardline

and a couple more likely additions for 2019.

Have all the ducks lined up and its a different team.
A team up to AFL standard and something for a coach to work with.
Lets see what Bolton can do with that, then judge who the most suitable coach is for 2020.
Bolton may have done what he needed to do,and we get a new senior coach in for 2020, or the club fills the gaps in the Match Committee.


Coaching is everything. The side we had even Saturday was enough.to win 6 games. By now we should be better drilled and the game plan should show some progress. Players have no idea out there. There should be something better than 3 x 100pt defeats and embarrassjng thrashings against bottom 4 sides. Plus the fact we have shown no effort in many games is coaching respect. That is a big one.

We have alot of good, young players, some great ones, and will likely bring more good players in. Useless though if coach is a dud.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:49 am 
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Bruce Comben

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:33 pm
Posts: 29
is it worth a late pick (70 or later) or even if still available a rookie pick to get the very unlucky former first rounder (10 I think) Freeman?

I know his injury history but just feel a late pick or rookie pick is not much of a spend.

Worth a thought or two?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:56 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2644
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Our pp should be enough for Shiel even M Crouch (which i would be a great get) but too much for McGovern.


We wanted (and received) 2 first round picks for a contracted player that turned 29 before the season started.
And you think pick 12 in a stronger draft is enough for a contracted Dylan Shiel or a contracted 23 year old All Australian and reigning B&F in Matt Crouch?

It's great to play hard ball but let's attempt to be slightly realistic.


Correct it is a strong draft and yes Shiel is a lazy footballer. A good footballer but a lazy one and apparently Crouch isn't happy.

By the way we also traded 2nd and 3rd rounders which could have favoured Adelaide considerably (even though they get a 19 pick before all the pp and free trade picks) more but you conveniently disregarded those facts.
Maybe the mods should get involved before you blow your top again. No sorry that would be me because you didn't disclose full facts. :donk:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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We get it jim, you think Bolton can't coach.

How about we give it a rest now?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17952
redback wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Our pp should be enough for Shiel even M Crouch (which i would be a great get) but too much for McGovern.


We wanted (and received) 2 first round picks for a contracted player that turned 29 before the season started.
And you think pick 12 in a stronger draft is enough for a contracted Dylan Shiel or a contracted 23 year old All Australian and reigning B&F in Matt Crouch?

It's great to play hard ball but let's attempt to be slightly realistic.


Correct it is a strong draft and yes Shiel is a lazy footballer. A good footballer but a lazy one and apparently Crouch isn't happy.


According to the internet he's not happy?
Why didn't you say so earlier? That makes all the difference.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:49 am
Posts: 1650
redback wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Our pp should be enough for Shiel even M Crouch (which i would be a great get) but too much for McGovern.


We wanted (and received) 2 first round picks for a contracted player that turned 29 before the season started.
And you think pick 12 in a stronger draft is enough for a contracted Dylan Shiel or a contracted 23 year old All Australian and reigning B&F in Matt Crouch?

It's great to play hard ball but let's attempt to be slightly realistic.


Correct it is a strong draft and yes Shiel is a lazy footballer. A good footballer but a lazy one and apparently Crouch isn't happy.

By the way we also traded 2nd and 3rd rounders which could have favoured Adelaide considerably (even though they get a 19 pick before all the pp and free trade picks) more but you conveniently disregarded those facts.
Maybe the mods should get involved before you blow your top again. No sorry that would be me because you didn't disclose full facts. :donk:


Crows have done magnificently out of the CFC by design or not. IMHO McGovern is not worth pick 12 or pick 19 wherever the PP lands.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2644
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Our pp should be enough for Shiel even M Crouch (which i would be a great get) but too much for McGovern.


We wanted (and received) 2 first round picks for a contracted player that turned 29 before the season started.
And you think pick 12 in a stronger draft is enough for a contracted Dylan Shiel or a contracted 23 year old All Australian and reigning B&F in Matt Crouch?

It's great to play hard ball but let's attempt to be slightly realistic.


Correct it is a strong draft and yes Shiel is a lazy footballer. A good footballer but a lazy one and apparently Crouch isn't happy.


That makes all the difference.


Cut


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17952
:grin: :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Our pp should be enough for Shiel even M Crouch (which i would be a great get) but too much for McGovern.


We wanted (and received) 2 first round picks for a contracted player that turned 29 before the season started.
And you think pick 12 in a stronger draft is enough for a contracted Dylan Shiel or a contracted 23 year old All Australian and reigning B&F in Matt Crouch?

It's great to play hard ball but let's attempt to be slightly realistic.


The devil is in the detail which you’ve ignored....

We gave the Crows pick 19 (2018) in a much stronger draft which sort of cancels out pick 16 (2017).

We’re also receiving around pick 25 (2018) from the Crows but the Crows were expecting that to be much closer to pick 35 or 36... which would have been replaced by pick 37 (which we also supplied to the Crows as part of the deal).

So the Crows expected the deal to be...

Carlton 10 (2017), 16 (2017), 37 (2018)
Adelaide 19 (2018), 35 or 36 (2018)

The list manager got lucky, no one expected the Crows to finish where they did, especially the Crows... apart from their injuries, they decided to go camping etc :lol:

We were always going to struggle with no midfield etc


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 11671
jim wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Hay, Bondi, I like your post BUT unless we radically change the way we play the game, we will never kick enough goals to win games, whilst leaking goals at the other end.
We had 8 defenders in the defensive fifty tonight but they still managed to kick 165 points against them. That should be impossible BUT we had 2 vs six in our F50, which let them run four players down the ground to upset the defensive setup and kick about 8 goals from inside the square.
The good teams of the current and near future era have a run and stun game plan that is high risk unless you can execute your passes by hand and foot. We don't let our players run, which is against the trend of the game and suicidal in my opinion. On top of that, we insist on the chippy chippy turnover game in our defensive half followed by a kick down the line to a contest. MM invented that in the nineties and we are well past it or should be.
Week after week we watch teams run through the middle of the ground unimpeded. We don't defend the corridor, which in this climate is just plain stupid. Then tonight we saw Adelaide use the boundary as well and we let them do it all the way to the goal line on eight occasions or more.
Who do we pick that will take us up the ladder using the current game style? Another Cripps-type who revels in the contested game footy that is being phased out at the top of the ladder? Or do we look for a high possession ball winner with more outside skills and likes to carry the footy. Someone like SPS used to be as a junior but who now gets the ball and looks to dish it off as fast as possible laterally or backwards perhaps? Maybe we should ditch Pickett and Garlett while we're at it. They love to run and carry and play footy with flair but they don't fit the BB 1990's game style of contested footy and defensive acts. Put Pickett in the Richmond team and see how he goes.
I suggested we get Saad wen he was available and was laughed off the page because he is a spud. Well he seems to go OK at Essendon**** because Essendon**** has discovered (too late for this year) that running payers off the back line down the middle is the way to beat teams who set up a deep zone or flood. Teams like Carlton, for example.
BB plays such a structured game that there is no room in it for Garlett, Pickett, Saad or anybody who wants to run and carry because when they look up, there is never anybody in front of them to kick it to.
So who do we draft at #1? Walsh? Rankine? Smith? Lukosis? Someone else?
Who do we trade for? McGovern? A stoic mark and kick defender? Yep he fits the 90's style of footy we are playing. Get him. Stuff Hunt from Mebourne who just loves to be a 100 metre possession player.
Which FA do we want? Dahlhaus? He likes to run and carry so he's out.

It all comes down to the game plan. Unless we have one that will stack up against Richmond, Collingwood, Melbourne, GWS, Essendon**** and Hawthorn, we might as well consign ourselves to the bottom of the ladder for the next five years. It all comes down to the coach. Unless he can jump us up to about tenth next year on the back of your argument, he's gawn and we have to start another rebuild based on the list he put together to play his style of game.
I find that frightening.


I'm hearing you, just as I heard King question the coaching strategy you describe.
King's comments made me think about my doubts on Bolton as a tactician, but I still don't think that's the problem we need to focus on right now.

I strongly believe Carlton will be a stronger team with a stronger list in 2019 regardless of coach and game plan.
Regardless who is coach I believe next year will see us climb the ladder but not make the Final 8 based on our current list.
I believe that the kids development has been expedited this year with their exposure to AFL footy week in week out.

IMO, no game plan can be executed properly if the players are not fit enough or strong enough to showcase their skills for 4 quarters of AFL.
They are kids. We have 18yo, 19yo, 20yo and 21yo out there. Many of them carrying niggles. They are not ready for AFL but you are suggesting they are and its the game plan which is the problem.

Get the list right, then we will see what we need to do with the coach.
I've heard it a lot that Bolton needs a good tactician by his side, and an old head ala Neil Craig.
I think Bolton knows what foundations he needs to lay and the club has supported him.

The first 15 minutes of the year against the reigning Premiers saw us go up 5 goals to zip, then he had Kennedy do his ankle and Kreuzer go down with injuries....it was down hill or rollercoaster ride (whatever) that followed.

Lets get another preseason into all the kids.
Lets get the the likes of Pickett, Garlett, Cunngham fit for outside speed. Key word being fully fit, not just available.
Lets add Docherty, Williamson, Plowman/Macreadie in the backline
Lets add Kreuzer, Fisher, Dow in the midfield
Lets add Walsh Shiel and Setterfield in our midfield
Lets get a McGovern into the forwardline

and a couple more likely additions for 2019.

Have all the ducks lined up and its a different team.
A team up to AFL standard and something for a coach to work with.
Lets see what Bolton can do with that, then judge who the most suitable coach is for 2020.
Bolton may have done what he needed to do,and we get a new senior coach in for 2020, or the club fills the gaps in the Match Committee.


Coaching is everything. The side we had even Saturday was enough.to win 6 games. By now we should be better drilled and the game plan should show some progress. Players have no idea out there. There should be something better than 3 x 100pt defeats and embarrassjng thrashings against bottom 4 sides. Plus the fact we have shown no effort in many games is coaching respect. That is a big one.

We have alot of good, young players, some great ones, and will likely bring more good players in. Useless though if coach is a dud.
Not to mention that a team with only 7 fit players scored 20 goals on us in the last quarter. Oh the shame of it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17952
ColourMan wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
Our pp should be enough for Shiel even M Crouch (which i would be a great get) but too much for McGovern.


We wanted (and received) 2 first round picks for a contracted player that turned 29 before the season started.
And you think pick 12 in a stronger draft is enough for a contracted Dylan Shiel or a contracted 23 year old All Australian and reigning B&F in Matt Crouch?

It's great to play hard ball but let's attempt to be slightly realistic.


The devil is in the detail which you’ve ignored....

We gave the Crows pick 19 (2018) in a much stronger draft which sort of cancels out pick 16 (2017).

We’re also receiving around pick 25 (2018) from the Crows but the Crows were expecting that to be much closer to pick 35 or 36... which would have been replaced by pick 37 (which we also supplied to the Crows as part of the deal).

So the Crows expected the deal to be...

Carlton 10 (2017),16 (2017), 37 (2018)
Adelaide 19 (2018), 35 or 36 (2018)

The list manager got lucky, no one expected the Crows to finish where they did, especially the Crows... apart from their injuries, they decided to go camping etc :lol:

We were always going to struggle with no midfield etc



Try dealing in reality.
Pick 19 is just blatantly untrue. It will be nowhere near that. More likely pick 25. And we get their second rounder. Your post is full of maybes, incorrect facts and could be's.
Since when do draft pick allocations have anything to do with future expectations? :grin:
When draft picks are allocated on where people expect to finish, get back to me.

Until then, the reality is we received 2 first round picks and a swap of second rounders with a team that finished well out of the 8. We gave up Gibbs and our 3rd rounder this year, that will probably be in the high 40's.
It was a good deal IMO.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Posts: 28227
Mullett , Shaw , O'Shea , JGM delisted

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-0 ... st-changes


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 14342
Location: Sydney
On the Gibbs vs. Shiel thing, didn't Gibbs still have 3 years to run on his deal or something? And Shiel becomes a free agent at the end of 2019? If I'm getting this right, it would justify only trading the one PP for Shiel. If I'm getting it wrong, fire me into the sun.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17952
A bit light on I would have thought. I appreciate they will wait to see what happens with trades but you would think we'd made at least 5 changes to the senior list.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:21 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:16 pm
Posts: 14342
Location: Sydney
Rexy wrote:
Mullett , Shaw , O'Shea , JGM delisted

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-0 ... st-changes


Woo-hoo!

I mean, terrible news for the lads, best of luck for the future, yada yada.

But woo-hoo!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Rexy wrote:
Mullett , Shaw , O'Shea , JGM delisted

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2018-0 ... st-changes
Shocked

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#GUILTY


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 3441
Blue Vain wrote:
A bit light on I would have thought. I appreciate they will wait to see what happens with trades but you would think we'd made at least 5 changes to the senior list.



With A Silvagni‘s retirement it is 5 changes.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Is Rowe being retained ?

If so, why ??


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:27 am
Posts: 3581
Graham, Rowe and Kerridge. Must be waiting until after the trade period before they decide their futures.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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toddkurnski wrote:
Graham, Rowe and Kerridge. Must be waiting until after the trade period before they decide their futures.

My thoughts too. I suspect the club will keep them on as depth if we can't acquire any of our trade targets.

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