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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 7437
kezza wrote:
Jon Ralph wrote a good article on the paper today.
Basically saying that the AFL has to do something to help the bottom clubs.
Mentions that the draft is broken because of free agency and players want to finish their careers at top clubs.
He gave an example of us finishing bottom and receiving pick 1 and our next picks in the low to mid 20's.
Then compared that to Richmond who may win the flag and get pick 18. Plus if they get Lynch they are effectively getting two extra first round picks because this would be the value of Lynch. This could mean that the equivalent of 3 first round picks.
It is broken, the AFL must know this.
What they do about it will be interesting.


AFL have a problem and they know it.Reckon Gil has too Ralph to get out there start the ball rolling.Expect similar articles to Ralph's to trickle out over the next few weeks.These Journo's know that if you do Gils dirty work for him you will be amply rewarded in the future..............Sorta one hand washes the other.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher
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Posts: 88
The NBA is the best guide of what you need to do to rebuild, and even then it isn't easy. See article below about what the Golden State Warriors did to get from the bottom to the top.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how- ... ?r=US&IR=T

Key Points:

Here’s how they built it.

1. Drafting (Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green)

2. Trades (David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Andre Iguodala)

The Warriors have rounded out their core by making extremely smart trades.

3. Signings (Shaun Livingston, Marreese Speights, Leandro Barbosa)

Lastly, in May 2014, they hired Steve Kerr to replace head coach Mark Jackson, who had gotten under management’s skin. Kerr has received abundant praise, and after Wednesday’s victory over the Rockets, became the first head coach in NBA history to win 19 of the first 21 games of his coaching career.

It’s taken several years for the Warriors, but it’s finally coming together, and they look unstoppable.

Its not rocket science but you need to be good

Drafting: The more picks the better, Boston is currently the best example of what to do last year they traded Pick #1 for Pick #3 plus additional picks and Tatum was a star and Fultz (#1) was a bust. E.g. last year we should have traded down and got Stephenson. It looks like we picked O"Brien because he was mates with Dow... just saying you need to get your picks right and be creative to get more picks. I would lobby for the priority pick, Trade Pick #1 for 2 first round picks or a first round pick and a trade. We also need to use our rookie picks wisely.

Trades: We have been getting our butts handed to us on nearly every trade we have done for a decade or more. The golden rule in the NBA is the team that gets the best player wins the trade. Usually we give away the best player and get the chaff back.

Signings: Brisbane showed us what to do last year with the signing of Hodge...the Eagles the year before with Mitchell.

The NBA also has a system of salary dumping where teams get rid of players that are paid too much to get out of their contract and usually through in a draft pick or two.

ATM we don't have enough good veterans to lead, we have lost on nearly every trade and end up with journeyman that try hard but haven't got the AFL level talent and drafting is a numbers game for every Curnow and Cripps you get a number of busts, so the more picks you get the more likely you are to win. And BTW neither of those guys were pick no 1...

Go the Blues

CB


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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:03 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Just look at Philly and the Lakers too.

Tank, tank, tank, build the core of kids.

Add free agents.

Only problem is it’s 12 slots to fill on a roster.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


Some good points here. I agree with your point on Adelaide. Their recruiting has been good considering their situation.

However, what A grade talent has Carlton gained from free agency?

Fact is A grade talent want to get to “destination clubs”. Last time I looked Carlton wasn’t a destination club. Personally, I don’t like free agency as it stands as I don’t believe it assists Carlton, but if it did I would be in favour of it.


Agree there are flaws in the system, just not on the advantage/disadvantage to one club per another.

Draft/Trade smart/Develop/Good coaching etc first.
Free Agency follows.


All clubs that are strong now have at times been rubbish in the last 20 years. They didn't just suddenly become a destination club without going through all of the hard ground work.


Exactly!!!

You do those things well, and you will be able to attract Free Agents, because the vision, the future is attainable/easy for everyone to see.

We're not doing those things well (including the Free Agent process) which is reflected in our results, outlook.

The system isn't the problem

Being constantly incompetent is the problem


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Rexy wrote:
The AFL should grow a pair and ban top 8 clubs from FA.



too harsh of a penalty for good successful clubs.

best bet is to remove all league boosts, profit sharing and interstate salary cap perks and have an even field across the board.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Free agency IS the issue. It was brought in to allow players to make more money. It was sold to the AFL as part of "equalisation" with the theory being that lower clubs could offer more money than top clubs could due to salary cap.

What that entire formula overlooked was the ability for the top clubs to offer success instead of dollars. So we then watched the top clubs add All Australian players willing to play for less than market value (Lake, Howe, Frawley). And for those players, the top clubs paid nothing. Well done on the clubs exploiting the loop hole, but the loop hole has to be shut.

Want to leave it open to the top 8 clubs? Easy, make them PAY the compensation. Why should a club be able to pick up Patrick Cripps for nothing, whilst we lose our best player and replace it with a ticket in the lottery draft? Thats not equalisation. And its resulted in a lop sided competition with the top clubs now monopolising the talent and so perpetuating the disparity.

It is totally broken.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Agree, an even field across the board would be fair to all.
The AFL’s equalization and assistance schemes have not worked .
Should CFC end the season with only 1 win, it will further highlight the shortfalls of the drafting salary cap and FA restrictions. The game is to over regulated

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Coach B wrote:
The NBA is the best guide of what you need to do to rebuild, and even then it isn't easy. See article below about what the Golden State Warriors did to get from the bottom to the top.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how- ... ?r=US&IR=T

Key Points:

Here’s how they built it.

1. Drafting (Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green)

2. Trades (David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Andre Iguodala)

The Warriors have rounded out their core by making extremely smart trades.

3. Signings (Shaun Livingston, Marreese Speights, Leandro Barbosa)

Lastly, in May 2014, they hired Steve Kerr to replace head coach Mark Jackson, who had gotten under management’s skin. Kerr has received abundant praise, and after Wednesday’s victory over the Rockets, became the first head coach in NBA history to win 19 of the first 21 games of his coaching career.

It’s taken several years for the Warriors, but it’s finally coming together, and they look unstoppable.

Its not rocket science but you need to be good Sadly, we're not good, even though we think we are, we're actually really dumb

Drafting: The more picks the better,Correct Boston is currently the best example of what to do last year they traded Pick #1 for Pick #3 plus additional picks and Tatum was a star and Fultz (#1) was a bust. E.g. last year we should have traded down and got Stephenson. It looks like we picked O"Brien because he was mates with Dow... just saying you need to get your picks right and be creative to get more picks. I would lobby for the priority pick, Trade Pick #1 for 2 first round picks or a first round pick and a trade. We also need to use our rookie picks wisely. Yep, instead of wasting rookie selections on recycled hacks, we're near the bottom anyway, might as well look for the next Ronke etc

Trades: We have been getting our butts handed to us on nearly every trade we have done for a decade or more. The golden rule in the NBA is the team that gets the best player wins the trade. Usually we give away the best player and get the chaff back. Correct again, and it's been so predictable!!! Clubs love dealing with us!!!

Signings: Brisbane showed us what to do last year with the signing of Hodge...the Eagles the year before with Mitchell.

The NBA also has a system of salary dumping where teams get rid of players that are paid too much to get out of their contract and usually through in a draft pick or two. Sadly, we're the shmucks that have constantly become the dumping ground for the bad contracts, which means we have less list spots for young talent!!!

ATM we don't have enough good veterans to lead, we have lost on nearly every trade and end up with journeyman that try hard but haven't got the AFL level talent and drafting is a numbers game for every Curnow and Cripps you get a number of busts, so the more picks you get the more likely you are to win. And BTW neither of those guys were pick no 1... Spot on!!!!
Actually no selections in the top 5!!!


Go the Blues

CB


Great Post, sums it up pretty well!!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm
Posts: 6750
Mickstar wrote:
kezza wrote:
Jon Ralph wrote a good article on the paper today.
Basically saying that the AFL has to do something to help the bottom clubs.
Mentions that the draft is broken because of free agency and players want to finish their careers at top clubs.
He gave an example of us finishing bottom and receiving pick 1 and our next picks in the low to mid 20's.
Then compared that to Richmond who may win the flag and get pick 18. Plus if they get Lynch they are effectively getting two extra first round picks because this would be the value of Lynch. This could mean that the equivalent of 3 first round picks.
It is broken, the AFL must know this.
What they do about it will be interesting.


AFL have a problem and they know it.Reckon Gil has too Ralph to get out there start the ball rolling.Expect similar articles to Ralph's to trickle out over the next few weeks.These Journo's know that if you do Gils dirty work for him you will be amply rewarded in the future..............Sorta one hand washes the other.


I couldn't believe what I was reading this morning.
It's about time the journos brought this FA fiasco up and the only way it can work with the current system is with a better fixture.

And it is very simple:
The ladder at the end of the year is divided into 3 groups. Top 6, middle 6 and bottom 6.

First 5 games against your group.
Next 12 games against the rest of the comp.
Last 5 games against your current group at the end of the first 17 games.

This creates a more even comp where teams with high injuries still have a chance to win games and the games will be better to watch too.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:43 pm
Posts: 4745
Coach B wrote:
The NBA is the best guide of what you need to do to rebuild, and even then it isn't easy. See article below about what the Golden State Warriors did to get from the bottom to the top.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/how- ... ?r=US&IR=T

Key Points:

Here’s how they built it.

1. Drafting (Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green)

2. Trades (David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Andre Iguodala)

The Warriors have rounded out their core by making extremely smart trades.

3. Signings (Shaun Livingston, Marreese Speights, Leandro Barbosa)

Lastly, in May 2014, they hired Steve Kerr to replace head coach Mark Jackson, who had gotten under management’s skin. Kerr has received abundant praise, and after Wednesday’s victory over the Rockets, became the first head coach in NBA history to win 19 of the first 21 games of his coaching career.

It’s taken several years for the Warriors, but it’s finally coming together, and they look unstoppable.

Its not rocket science but you need to be good

Drafting: The more picks the better, Boston is currently the best example of what to do last year they traded Pick #1 for Pick #3 plus additional picks and Tatum was a star and Fultz (#1) was a bust. E.g. last year we should have traded down and got Stephenson. It looks like we picked O"Brien because he was mates with Dow... just saying you need to get your picks right and be creative to get more picks. I would lobby for the priority pick, Trade Pick #1 for 2 first round picks or a first round pick and a trade. We also need to use our rookie picks wisely.

Trades: We have been getting our butts handed to us on nearly every trade we have done for a decade or more. The golden rule in the NBA is the team that gets the best player wins the trade. Usually we give away the best player and get the chaff back.

Signings: Brisbane showed us what to do last year with the signing of Hodge...the Eagles the year before with Mitchell.

The NBA also has a system of salary dumping where teams get rid of players that are paid too much to get out of their contract and usually through in a draft pick or two.

ATM we don't have enough good veterans to lead, we have lost on nearly every trade and end up with journeyman that try hard but haven't got the AFL level talent and drafting is a numbers game for every Curnow and Cripps you get a number of busts, so the more picks you get the more likely you are to win. And BTW neither of those guys were pick no 1...

Go the Blues

CB


Spot on.....the no.1 pick is complete bs........I can't see Rayner being a real star. Gibbs, Kreuz, Murphy etc the list goes on.....they are good but not the best players going around from their draft years.

Trade our top pick for 2 first rounders and or pick up a current gun plus first round pick for our no.1 pick. So easy to see this strategy is the only way to go !


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am
Posts: 2141
AIRCAV wrote:
Free agency IS the issue. It was brought in to allow players to make more money. It was sold to the AFL as part of "equalisation" with the theory being that lower clubs could offer more money than top clubs could due to salary cap.

What that entire formula overlooked was the ability for the top clubs to offer success instead of dollars. So we then watched the top clubs add All Australian players willing to play for less than market value (Lake, Howe, Frawley). And for those players, the top clubs paid nothing. Well done on the clubs exploiting the loop hole, but the loop hole has to be shut.

Want to leave it open to the top 8 clubs? Easy, make them PAY the compensation. Why should a club be able to pick up Patrick Cripps for nothing, whilst we lose our best player and replace it with a ticket in the lottery draft? Thats not equalisation. And its resulted in a lop sided competition with the top clubs now monopolising the talent and so perpetuating the disparity.

It is totally broken.


Excellent post. One of the best I have read as I agree with most of your points and it was put in a succinct format.

Whilst I was reading it though I was thinking about last Friday’s program FoxFooty when Eddie McGuire was talking about Lynch from Gold Coast. His eyes were lighting up, he was almost salivating, like a kid in a candy store. He was feigning concern for Gold Coast. It was so transparent. I think he plays the AFL mngt like a fiddle.

We need a president like him. Macchivellian. Not someone who hides in the corner.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4585
Location: Blisstonia.
AIRCAV wrote:
Free agency IS the issue. It was brought in to allow players to make more money. It was sold to the AFL as part of "equalisation" with the theory being that lower clubs could offer more money than top clubs could due to salary cap.

What that entire formula overlooked was the ability for the top clubs to offer success instead of dollars. So we then watched the top clubs add All Australian players willing to play for less than market value (Lake, Howe, Frawley). And for those players, the top clubs paid nothing. Well done on the clubs exploiting the loop hole, but the loop hole has to be shut.

Want to leave it open to the top 8 clubs? Easy, make them PAY the compensation. Why should a club be able to pick up Patrick Cripps for nothing, whilst we lose our best player and replace it with a ticket in the lottery draft? Thats not equalisation. And its resulted in a lop sided competition with the top clubs now monopolising the talent and so perpetuating the disparity.

It is totally broken.


Lake and Howe were both trades, not free agents.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Posts: 1724
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


Some good points here. I agree with your point on Adelaide. Their recruiting has been good considering their situation.

However, what A grade talent has Carlton gained from free agency?

Fact is A grade talent want to get to “destination clubs”. Last time I looked Carlton wasn’t a destination club. Personally, I don’t like free agency as it stands as I don’t believe it assists Carlton, but if it did I would be in favour of it.


Agree there are flaws in the system, just not on the advantage/disadvantage to one club per another.

Draft/Trade smart/Develop/Good coaching etc first.
Free Agency follows.

All clubs that are strong now have at times been rubbish in the last 20 years. They didn't just suddenly become a destination club without going through all of the hard ground work.


Well said :clap:

But its just obviously easier to blame the AFL by many!!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:16 am 
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formerly BlueRob
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Just because we probably have the number 1 pick and because teams have got it so wrong in the past does not mean the number 1 choice isn't the best option. IMO, that is superstitious nonsense. Of course it is better to have a pick 1 than a pick 2. The biggest problem with the picking of No. 1 has been the media. As usual they have so much power ... if you repeat things enough in the press ... people and clubs will believe it. However, because of this media power, I am worried that SOS will pick Lukosius who IMO is the 5th or 6th most talented player in the draft. He could become something special (other than Jack Watts) ... but there are more skilled players in the draft. So ... in this case I would rather get pick 2 because whoever finishes last will pick Lukosius. Unfortunately we are looking like the bunnies.

Also, picking a tall at No. 1 is more risky than picking a midfielder. Talls need time to develop and much can go wrong or right.

SOS please do one of these options.

    1. Draft Rankine (most talented and best option) or Walsh with Pick 1.
    2. Trade Pick 1 for two 1st round picks (under pick 12).
    3. Trade Pick 1 for a gun midfielder (with lots of years still to play) and a pick.

I think that the most likely outcome is Option 3. or we select Lukosius.

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Last edited by BigBlueWave on Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:28 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 4435
The AFL should give us Pick 2 and we hand it to GWS for Shiel and that's the end of it. Done.
So simple.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:39 am 
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John Nicholls
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Paddycripps wrote:
The AFL should give us Pick 2 and we hand it to GWS for Shiel and that's the end of it. Done.
So simple.


Yep. Simples. And we get another gun midfielder with Pick 1. Instant midfield.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:05 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Paddycripps wrote:
The AFL should give us Pick 2 and we hand it to GWS for Shiel and that's the end of it. Done.
So simple.


Yep ! great suggestion...................best in a long time actually.All it would take is to ask for it.Would they swallow there pride.Didnt bother the Hawks,they got Buddie and Roughie.

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 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:24 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Thanks Blueboy74, I stand corrected.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:39 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
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Location: Blisstonia.
AIRCAV wrote:
Thanks Blueboy74, I stand corrected.


Granted, they did both win those trades.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2141
AIRCAV wrote:
Thanks Blueboy74, I stand corrected.


Your basic point is still correct.

Silvagni recently proposed that top 8 clubs shouldn’t be able to recruit free agents from bottom clubs. This suggestion has merit, and whether it is free agent or general trading there should be a proper analysis of how top clubs don’t really pay market rates for picking the eyes out of bottom clubs.

Let’s look at Hawthorn’s 2015 premiership team. How many of their trades came from bottom clubs which didn’t have real power in negotiations? How many recruited from top 8 clubs?

Big boy Ben McEvoy - came from 16th place St Kilda in 2013

Hale - came from 9th placed North in 2010

Brian Lake / this is the real doozy. In my opinion, this bloke was the best defender of his generation. Better than the Geelong bloke.Came from the 15th placed Bulldogs at end of 2012 effectively for pick 27.hahahaha. Hilarious

James Frawley-came from 17th placed Melbourne end of 2014

Gibson requested trade to Hawthorn end of 2009 after Nth came 13th

Burgoyne vice captain at Port. Walked out of 10th placed Port end of 2009.

Gunston won best young player award walked out of 14th placed Adelaide end of 2011


Seeing a pattern?

The point stands- drafting, trading, free agency perpetuates inequalities. This is a big reason why Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney never have to “rebuild”. Did Hawthorn pay “market rates” for any of these players?

Reform the system... that is unless these 3 clubs are supposed to make finals every year?


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