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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:38 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
blueboy23 wrote:
Not sure apart from,
Simpson Rowe Plowman
Docherty Marchbank ??
?? Cripps ECurnow
Pickett Weitering ??
SOJ Charlie Wright
Kreuzer Murphy Gibbs
From; ?? ?? ?? ??
That's all we have with the starting 22.
Thomas, Kerridge, White, Armfield, Palmer, Casboult and Smedts will play.
Non of them are in anyone's best 22.
Byrne will come back when fit.
Fisher, SPS, McKay, Polson, Kerr, Lebois, Mcreadie, Cuningham and Williamson are all still young.
Lamb, Sumner, Graham, Gorringe, Jaksch, Buckley, Sheehan, Boekhorst, Gallucci, ASilvangi and Jones are not good enough.


Pretty much right IMO.
I haven't written off Armfield Smedts and Palmer, but they have done nothing to excite me, especially the latter 2.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:57 am 
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Laurie Kerr

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I don't really think this should be a new thread because it does pertain to the Richmond V Carlton game but here goes.

I always find it really interesting reading everyone's proposed team. Some try and guess what the match committee will pick, while other's try and pick our best 22. But the best 22 is really subjective, even with our list, because I wonder if the poster means its our best 22 as of right now, or the best 22 based on some other criteria, like the best 22 for our future, or particular players develop etc, or the best 22 that match up against Richmond.

A couple of examples that jump to mind immediately are that A.Silvagni showed some mongrel down back and based on his performance, I would play him instead of White. Not because White's my whipping boy but based on his poor disposal, decision making and discipline in the preseason games. I don't care about the past. Players just burst out of nowhere often, and I would want to ensure everyone on the list knew that if they work hard, they will get there chance. Some, however, would argue that at 29/30 y.o., they are not the future and that we would be better playing Macreadie or Williamson, with Macreadie being a KPD and Williamson being a small rebounding defender (tall defence vs small defence depending on the opposition).

Another is the ongoing conversation about Jaksch, and how many people say he is in their best 22 despite not playing senior football for a while, and not being selected in the practice matches. He hasn't demonstrated he should be part of our best 22 but based on his reputation, where he was selected in the draft, and how much we traded for him, some select him anyway. This is most likely because the alternatives aren't any better anyway, and that the match committee seem to select other players who might be left out in other circumstances like Daisy, or White, for instance. (Incidently, KJ has been playing well in the reserves and I hope he keeps at it).

So I guess my question to all you awesome 'TalkingCarlton' posters out there who give me so much to read and digest every week (thank you sincerely, so much, I love this club), is what our Match Committee's direction should be?

If we play all the kids, they'll get monstered both physically and psychologically. But they would get games and experience quicker (the quality of those games I think would be compromised)

Do we play best player available for given match-ups (even if its A.Silvagni, or S.White) to pinch some wins throughout the year, but relegate the youth to the Bullants and slow their develop?

Or is the trick to find the balance in between? I'm really interested to read what you all think.

I think the practice matches were a reality check for most of us. I was definately in the group who thought we would put together more wins than last year. I know that seems misguided and stupid now, but my logic was that the players coming in, covered the players going out. The only exception was Tuohy. I know that kids take time to develop but Smedts, Pickett, and Marchbank aren't 18yo's, and will pick things up much faster considering they've been in the system for a bit. Smedts didn't show much in the practice matches but he might once he settles in. Pickett and Marchbank will both be upgrades on players leaving.

Marchbank takes Jamo's place who didn't play. Patrick Kerr is an upgrade on Foster who didn't play. Fisher replaces DVR who didn't play, SPS takes Whiley's place, Pickett is an upgrade on Clem Smith, Williamson takes Dick's place, Polson replaces Tutt, and even though they played different roles, you could say LeBois is a replacement for 1AW who couldn't play anymore because of his body. I could go on but it looked like what had come in, was better than what went out right away. Without any development.

If you include McKay, who didn't play at all last year, and Jack Silvagni, Cunningham, Charlie Curnow, Weitering, who will all benefit from their 2nd preseason, it looks like blue skies. Oh, and lets not forget that guy Murphy who missed half the season. He goes alright. We seemed to win a few when he was in the team. My comment to anyone who had something to say about our 2nd half of the season was to ask how their team would go without their captain. They tend to be important.

I know that the preseason matches left me feeling like a fool, but it still looks really logical. Seriously, what have we really lost from last year? Everitt in the forward line? An injured 1AW and Jammo. Probably Leadership density is about it, and that could be a reason why Bolts keeps playing Daisy. I know they have rejigged the gameplan and its either shit, and they'll change it, or the players haven't learned it properly and the first few games will iron it out.

Either way, it probably comes down to whether we have improved more or less than our opposition have. Another development year, but we ARE better than last year and we will do better than last year.

GO BLUES

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:43 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Jaksch is as good as gone & dusted. He should be delisted As soon as the season ends. doesn't cut it and doesn't look interested. Clearly, Bolton does not rate him either.

With the Arrival of A.Silvagni as back up, he offers far more than Jaksch does.


Out of all the new players, I can only say with Certainty that Marchbank & Pickett have booked a Rd.1 ticket. The rest have a lot more to prove.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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I see A Silvagni as a very last resort back up. I think White is miles ahead of him as a player and where he is in the pecking order.

I'd like to see a good balance of experience and youth but our youngsters need to earn their way into the 22. Weitering did it last year, Pickett has done it this year.

My best 22 is based on a team that has the highest chance of winning our next match. Based on that for Rich:

White Rowe Plowman
Simpson Marchbank Docherty
Kerridge Cripps Gibbs
Wright Casboult Palmer
Pickett Weitering Armfield
Kreuzer Murphy E.Curnow
C.Curnow, Buckley, Smedts, Thomas

I would rather play Weitering down back but he is a better option than Jones, Mckay, Jaksch and C.Curnow for now. It's tempting to play Rowe and even White up forward to allow Weitering to go back (I am sure there will be times where that occurs).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Dodo27 wrote:
Jaksch is as good as gone & dusted. He should be delisted As soon as the season ends. doesn't cut it and doesn't look interested. Clearly, Bolton does not rate him either.

With the Arrival of A.Silvagni as back up, he offers far more than Jaksch does.


Out of all the new players, I can only say with Certainty that Marchbank & Pickett have booked a Rd.1 ticket. The rest have a lot more to prove.

Every time they mention KJ, the coaches say,
"He knows what is required of him to get a spot in the team."
To me, that sounds more like attitude than ability.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:09 pm
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Talrahir wrote:
I don't really think this should be a new thread because it does pertain to the Richmond V Carlton game but here goes.

I always find it really interesting reading everyone's proposed team. Some try and guess what the match committee will pick, while other's try and pick our best 22. But the best 22 is really subjective, even with our list, because I wonder if the poster means its our best 22 as of right now, or the best 22 based on some other criteria, like the best 22 for our future, or particular players develop etc, or the best 22 that match up against Richmond.

A couple of examples that jump to mind immediately are that A.Silvagni showed some mongrel down back and based on his performance, I would play him instead of White. Not because White's my whipping boy but based on his poor disposal, decision making and discipline in the preseason games. I don't care about the past. Players just burst out of nowhere often, and I would want to ensure everyone on the list knew that if they work hard, they will get there chance. Some, however, would argue that at 29/30 y.o., they are not the future and that we would be better playing Macreadie or Williamson, with Macreadie being a KPD and Williamson being a small rebounding defender (tall defence vs small defence depending on the opposition).

Another is the ongoing conversation about Jaksch, and how many people say he is in their best 22 despite not playing senior football for a while, and not being selected in the practice matches. He hasn't demonstrated he should be part of our best 22 but based on his reputation, where he was selected in the draft, and how much we traded for him, some select him anyway. This is most likely because the alternatives aren't any better anyway, and that the match committee seem to select other players who might be left out in other circumstances like Daisy, or White, for instance. (Incidently, KJ has been playing well in the reserves and I hope he keeps at it).

So I guess my question to all you awesome 'TalkingCarlton' posters out there who give me so much to read and digest every week (thank you sincerely, so much, I love this club), is what our Match Committee's direction should be?

If we play all the kids, they'll get monstered both physically and psychologically. But they would get games and experience quicker (the quality of those games I think would be compromised)

Do we play best player available for given match-ups (even if its A.Silvagni, or S.White) to pinch some wins throughout the year, but relegate the youth to the Bullants and slow their develop?

Or is the trick to find the balance in between? I'm really interested to read what you all think.

I think the practice matches were a reality check for most of us. I was definately in the group who thought we would put together more wins than last year. I know that seems misguided and stupid now, but my logic was that the players coming in, covered the players going out. The only exception was Tuohy. I know that kids take time to develop but Smedts, Pickett, and Marchbank aren't 18yo's, and will pick things up much faster considering they've been in the system for a bit. Smedts didn't show much in the practice matches but he might once he settles in. Pickett and Marchbank will both be upgrades on players leaving.

Marchbank takes Jamo's place who didn't play. Patrick Kerr is an upgrade on Foster who didn't play. Fisher replaces DVR who didn't play, SPS takes Whiley's place, Pickett is an upgrade on Clem Smith, Williamson takes Dick's place, Polson replaces Tutt, and even though they played different roles, you could say LeBois is a replacement for 1AW who couldn't play anymore because of his body. I could go on but it looked like what had come in, was better than what went out right away. Without any development.

If you include McKay, who didn't play at all last year, and Jack Silvagni, Cunningham, Charlie Curnow, Weitering, who will all benefit from their 2nd preseason, it looks like blue skies. Oh, and lets not forget that guy Murphy who missed half the season. He goes alright. We seemed to win a few when he was in the team. My comment to anyone who had something to say about our 2nd half of the season was to ask how their team would go without their captain. They tend to be important.

I know that the preseason matches left me feeling like a fool, but it still looks really logical. Seriously, what have we really lost from last year? Everitt in the forward line? An injured 1AW and Jammo. Probably Leadership density is about it, and that could be a reason why Bolts keeps playing Daisy. I know they have rejigged the gameplan and its either shit, and they'll change it, or the players haven't learned it properly and the first few games will iron it out.

Either way, it probably comes down to whether we have improved more or less than our opposition have. Another development year, but we ARE better than last year and we will do better than last year.

GO BLUES


Firstly I'm with you, I love reading the comments on here, even if its just to get a feel on what other Carlton supporters think, because let's be honest everyone on here loves the club and wants what best for it regardless of whether our opinions are different.

When it comes to best 22, i do who i would select if i was in charge, one main thing for me is team balance, so only having 3 key defenders, i see no reason for white or rowe or silvangi to be in the team as marchbank plowman and weitering are actually better players, i also agree it's important to have a good balance of youth and experience but with someone like daisy, i cant fathom how people think he is our best 22. In my opinion players like fisher and cunningham are already better then daisy and offer more to the team then he does.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:22 pm
Posts: 109
Dk wrote:
Firstly I'm with you, I love reading the comments on here, even if its just to get a feel on what other Carlton supporters think, because let's be honest everyone on here loves the club and wants what best for it regardless of whether our opinions are different.

When it comes to best 22, i do who i would select if i was in charge, one main thing for me is team balance, so only having 3 key defenders, i see no reason for white or rowe or silvangi to be in the team as marchbank plowman and weitering are actually better players, i also agree it's important to have a good balance of youth and experience but with someone like daisy, i cant fathom how people think he is our best 22. In my opinion players like fisher and cunningham are already better then daisy and offer more to the team then he does.


I do the same as you but I often get stuck at deciding whether to play a more seasoned player like White, who might perform better on the day than one of the kids, or to play a first year player with one eye on the future, and accept a temporary dip in team performance (for the greater good - that players development, not tanking).

I think Rowe holds his spot and generally gets a pretty rough trot from the supporters. I know his disposal and decision making can make us bleed from the ears at times but who is ready to take his place. Weiters isn't quite ready to hold down the main post by himself and will probably spend large chunks of his season up forward anyway. The only other option is Macreadie, who isn't ready. Marchbank is a completely different type of defender, being a medium rebounding intercept player and I see him competing for White's spot. Ploughman is a small/medium defender who gets out bodied by medium/tall defenders, and can't keep up with the small forwards. They'll all be much better in 12 months time. I see the best option is to have Weiters and Rowe in the same team to give Weiters both respite in FB, and Bolts the option to push Weitering forward. When Weitering is at FB, Rowe pushes forward. There's sadly plenty of spots available at that end of the ground.

I definately won't argue that White can and should be replaced, while A.Silvagni is competing for Rowe's spot, so he shouldn't play unless we need a tall defence or Rowe is out. I love his aggression at the packs, and think it would definately benefit our mobile defenders but he is a depth player.

If Daisy is named on the ball, I'd rather play Cunningham to get some games into him. If Daisy is named in the forward line, I'd rather play LeBois. If Daisy is named in a back pocket I'd rather play Williamson. If he is named on the bench, I'd rather pick Cunningham. I think you get the picture. What a player he was.

Whats the update on JGM? Do we know how his preseason tracked? I suppose he's another year away since he wasn't picked to play in the practice matches, but will he make it? We've sure got a sound defence building. Just have to get some games into C.Curnow, McKay, J.Silvagni and see how the forward line progresses. Stack up on mids at the end of the year and the list is looking a little healthier.

I'll put some thought into my team selection and post it soon.

GO BLUES

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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Hi Tai enjoy reading your posts keep going

My problem with White Rowe and Silvagni is that they give us no run whatsoever and therefore gum up our back line and then the pressure is even greater on Simpson and docherty and the other young defenders

They have strong bodies but decision making is terrible generally costing us goals most games if their skill level was better then there may be arguments to support their inclusion

Moreover a lot of teams have solid senior players which the young guys can learn from these 3 guys aren't really that standard so not sure they are learning much from these guys not sure any other team in the AFL would play one of these guys in their team let alone 2 or 3

Compare these guys to someone like Matthew Wright no star but a very solid AFL player which young guys can learn from


Can't really understand why more than one of them should play if we have Marchbank and Weiters and Plowman although there is a possibility of Weiters going forward

Can understand one playing probably Rowe because he can take a gorilla and at a pinch can do some rucking but no way more than one can play
Rowe is much better when he plays within his limitations and keeps it simple

I made the observation when we recruited Silvagni that if the 3 of them play we can't win the game and I still stand by it because of the reasons set out above
Generally when White and Rowe play we don't win either
So if we are going to lose playing those 3 or 2 why nor role the dice with younger players and see whether they indeed are better or will be better than White or Silvagni


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

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frank dardew wrote:
Hi Tai enjoy reading your posts keep going

My problem with White Rowe and Silvagni is that they give us no run whatsoever and therefore gum up our back line and then the pressure is even greater on Simpson and docherty and the other young defenders

They have strong bodies but decision making is terrible generally costing us goals most games if their skill level was better then there may be arguments to support their inclusion

Moreover a lot of teams have solid senior players which the young guys can learn from these 3 guys aren't really that standard so not sure they are learning much from these guys not sure any other team in the AFL would play one of these guys in their team let alone 2 or 3

Compare these guys to someone like Matthew Wright no star but a very solid AFL player which young guys can learn from


Can't really understand why more than one of them should play if we have Marchbank and Weiters and Plowman although there is a possibility of Weiters going forward

Can understand one playing probably Rowe because he can take a gorilla and at a pinch can do some rucking but no way more than one can play
Rowe is much better when he plays within his limitations and keeps it simple

I made the observation when we recruited Silvagni that if the 3 of them play we can't win the game and I still stand by it because of the reasons set out above
Generally when White and Rowe play we don't win either
So if we are going to lose playing those 3 or 2 why nor role the dice with younger players and see whether they indeed are better or will be better than White or Silvagni


I agree with you completely. I see a back line of Plowman, Rowe, Marchbank, and a half back line of Simpson, Weitering, Docherty. The big problem we have, though, is that if Bolts wants to push Weitering forward, then we need someone to cover. That's where White probably ends up on the bench until Williamson is ready, or Macreadie to take Rowe's spot and Rowe takes White's spot on the bench. I probably could have written that better.......Because of White's durability, being a big body, and being able to play a number of positions, he probably gets the nod over one of the kids at least for now, but its not my preference. There just isn't anyone who's quite ready to take his place if we want to push Weitering foward. Have I missed anyone though? White looked really out of touch (more so than normal) during the JLT.

Go Blues

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Talrahir wrote:
I see a back line of Plowman, Rowe, Marchbank, and a half back line of Simpson, Weitering, Docherty.
Go Blues


1 tall too many IMO. Plowman plays as a medium/taller defender which is is not sustainable with another 3 talls.
2 tall defenders and one medium/tall should be sufficient IMHO. It enables us to use Weitering as a swingman.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:22 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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There's 16 players I am confident at selecting.
Thereafter its all guess work.
I'll look at y first 18 at this stage.

I want Weitering forward in this game...or swinging with Rowe. Leave rcbank and Plowman back.

First dilemma, do I select Alex S in the P for his good defensive game and aggression?
Obviously I like him, but I'll back Plowman's strength and speed for now.

With SPS missing, I've gone for Cuningham on the wing or his speed, over Kerridge.
With Byrne injured and have not seen if Sheehan is primed for a comeback, I'll take Armfield for BP.
Must be said Armfield did not impress me last week.

B: Plowman Rowe Armfield
HB: Docherty Marchbank Simpson

C: Curnow.E Gibbs Cuningham
R: Kreuzer Cripps Murphy

HF: Pickett Weitering Curnow.C
F: Silvagni Casboult Wright

As for the rest, they are even more difficult to back than Armfield and Cuningham who haven't proven themselves this year.
Maybe Fisher might ump Cunners but its all guesswork.

Can't wait for the game and look forward to enjoying the Melbourne heat wave

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Blue Vain wrote:
Talrahir wrote:
I see a back line of Plowman, Rowe, Marchbank, and a half back line of Simpson, Weitering, Docherty.
Go Blues


1 tall too many IMO. Plowman plays as a medium/taller defender which is is not sustainable with another 3 talls.
2 tall defenders and one medium/tall should be sufficient IMHO. It enables us to use Weitering as a swingman.

I agree that's the structure. I suspect we'll start the season with Rowe & Marchbank as the two talls + Plowman as the medium/tall. Weitering & Casboult forward.

Personally, I wouldn't mind Weitering & Marchbank as the two talls in defence and Rowe & Jaksch forward. At some point in the season we should try Marchbank as the medium/tall defender, Weitering & Rowe as the tall defenders and Plowman as a lead up forward.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

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Blue Vain wrote:
Talrahir wrote:
I see a back line of Plowman, Rowe, Marchbank, and a half back line of Simpson, Weitering, Docherty.
Go Blues


1 tall too many IMO. Plowman plays as a medium/taller defender which is is not sustainable with another 3 talls.
2 tall defenders and one medium/tall should be sufficient IMHO. It enables us to use Weitering as a swingman.



Hey BV! I definately agree and would want to see a more mobile defence. Our only point of difference is that I see Plowman as a medium defender as opposed to a medium/tall. I think he just gets out-positioned or out muscled when against a tall, but not quite explosive enough on a small. I'm very interested though, in what change you would make here. Would you take out Rowe? and who would you bring in.

GO BLUES

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:08 am 
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John Nicholls
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Talrahir wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Talrahir wrote:
I see a back line of Plowman, Rowe, Marchbank, and a half back line of Simpson, Weitering, Docherty.
Go Blues


1 tall too many IMO. Plowman plays as a medium/taller defender which is is not sustainable with another 3 talls.
2 tall defenders and one medium/tall should be sufficient IMHO. It enables us to use Weitering as a swingman.



Hey BV! I definately agree and would want to see a more mobile defence. Our only point of difference is that I see Plowman as a medium defender as opposed to a medium/tall. I think he just gets out-positioned or out muscled when against a tall, but not quite explosive enough on a small. I'm very interested though, in what change you would make here. Would you take out Rowe? and who would you bring in.

GO BLUES


I'm starting to see Plowman more as depth. I think Byrne will be a better option running of half back (he's quicker and has a cannon of a peg, and a slice of mongrel. Of course Docherty. Marchbank, Weiters for the regular talls. We need a Guerilla replacement for Rowe - someone who doesn't wrap the ball in cellophane/ribbon and hand it to the opposition.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:27 am 
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I was thinking that Plow might not be a sure bet but after watching him against Freo he looks to have gone up a cog. Pretty smart footballer.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 am 
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Craig Bradley

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agree Lace Out - must have a pretty good team :banghead: if Plowman isn't in the first 18


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Plow is a lock.
I think we win this. Forget the tigers pre season form. LListis rubbish. All they have over us at the moment is a little bit of momentum.

Blues by 16

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Lace Out wrote:
I was thinking that Plow might not be a sure bet but after watching him against Freo he looks to have gone up a cog. Pretty smart footballer.

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His kicking is a huge worry - kills us on the turnover, as our midfield still don't want to run both ways.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:28 pm 
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formerly Yazzamatazz
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Fair call. I'll back him in to clean up his disposal though.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Just listened to Bolts interview on RSN this morning.

Adam White made an interesting remark after the interview. Said we had genuine optimism going in to R1 last year of causing the upset. He says he doesn't believe we have the same optimism going in to this year.

That's a massive challenge for Bolts and Co, setting the internal benchmarks, standards and mindset. Being realistic is one thing but it will be horrible for everyone going in to games having no confidence of being able to win.

I sure hope our internal confidence and optimism is much higher than is thought.

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