BV, Jones has had his chance and he couldn't sustain his effort levels at AFL level, and now back at VFL level he seems to be showing that he's at his ceiling.

The same shouldn't be said of Silvagni and Jaksch. Silvagni could definitely afford to build his fitness at VFL level more, but KJ is probably at the limit of what the VFL can do for him through competition, and the rest has to come from him.

Regardless, they offer at least as much scoring power and game minutes as Jones as individuals, with the potential for more. Jones needs to find something new, Walker needs a boot up the arse or some more conditioning without costing the team performance, and White isn't a forward.

Out with the old, in with the new. I wouldn't pick either one if everyone was fit, but they're the best of what's available for senior selection IMO.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Possibly. I'm not disputing who has more scope for improvement or who's had chances. I was just stating he was the form forward outside the AFL team which was the line of consideration.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Silvagni will not be in the side for the first time in an away game. It will be a Carlton home game. More bums on seats = $$$ to the club

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It is not as bad as you are lead to believe.......it is %$#^& worse!!!

I can't agree with your first line. Jones was doing well in all games he played imo. He wasn't displaying the shockers he did in 2015, so for4 me he's on the improve. No matter which way you look at it, other than the stats Gorringe produced against the 2nd rate Lions win, Jones is miles ahead of Gorringe except in HO's. Gorringe is lucky his height allows him to be considered ahead of Jones whilst Philips has been injured.

In his first outing since doing his hamstring in the game he kicked the winning goal outside 50 against the Bombers Philips Stats: 13 disposals, 8 marks, 4 inside 50s, 53 hitouts, 1 goal and BOG. You like to leave him out of your considerations...so much for your "out with the old and in with the new" stance.

Philips is a better ruckman than Kreuzer and Gorringe. Can take a grab and kick a goal. Why don't you consider him?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

We need to bring Jaksch in and give him time to show us if he is worth moving forward with. I would give him a month playing forward and I wouldn't be surprised if he held his spot from there.

I think you'll find Jones stats in the games he played with Gorringe in the VFL, Jones turned up and kicked a swag of goals and Gorringe did FA. Jones got the senior call up.

In the AFL, Gorringe stats:

v NM HO 7 D 13 G 1
v Geel HO 8 D 14 G 2
v Lions HO 12 D 18 G 1
v Stk HO 9 D 7 G 0

Jones kicked 2 v port, 1 v Coll, 1 v Ess

I don't know from that if Gorringe is trending upwards.

The real difference between Gorringe and Jones is ruck work.
Both can't ruck but Gorringe is the best of the 2.

Look, I prefer Gorringe to Jones, and feel Jones was hard done by. I don't think the MC's big question for the future is Jones or Gorringe

I think the BIG issue /question is whether you play Philips/ Kreuzer combo, Gorringe/ Kreuzer or Gorringe/ Philips combo.

We know Philips can take a mark and kick a goal, and he is the best tap ruckman of the 3.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Not if he performs the week before one, then we scoop up more.

Gives people more than a 36 hours to notice he's been picked for the Collingwood game too, as well as less pressure on debut.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Jones has improved compared to pre-season, but he didn't go up a notch at AFL level after sustained VFL form; he just stayed the same. I'd rather opt for the upside which is genuinely nipping at his heels.

That was Phillips' second game, and his ruck opposition was woeful because the NB's won the hitout tally in the vicinity of 90-30.


There's actually no evidence that Phillips can do anything better than Kreuzer other than jump higher. For all that should provide him, he doesn't actually win more hitouts, or more hitouts to advantage, or clearance, or kick more goals, or take more marks thus far. He just doesn't do it.

If Kreuzer has another shit game, thus proving that his poor performance didn't involve hitting the wall after a gruelling month or so for our talls and mids, then Phillips gets the nod IMO. Phillips is not first choice, and that's clear as day. Picking him ahead of Gorringe deprives us of forward pressure, a more dynamic forward target, an extra goal every other game, and about 40-50 minutes bench time for the midfield, all for about 15 extra hitouts, with maybe 3 to advantage, and arguably no extra clearances.

How does that help the team or the spectacle? You're being a purist for the sake of how the hitout looks to you rather than what it does, as is everyone who holds your point of view right now. I'm glad that we have a competent reserve ruck who can lead in Kreuzer's absence, but I don't agree with sacrificing a valuable contribution on a whim and a sniff of a bygone era.

One or both ruck options must be better at another facet of the game or extremely elite at winning hitouts to advantage, otherwise it is a structural weakness that sides can exploit (and have). Neither offer that, so while Kreuzer is the better ruck, Phillips needs to learn how to sit in the backseat and do something else.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

jimmae wrote



I had to take a big breath when I read that line.

Be fair. Opinions are opinions. "Bygone era"? You rate yourself as modern thinker over other opinions? Jesus.
If so, you are so ahead of everyone in the modern times...just point out where the wheelchair access is for us geriatrics.

Have a look at Gorringe in the ruck. He has such a long way to go. He doesn't like the contest. Have you noticed that? He isn't a ruckman. GCS tried to make him a wingman such was the issue with his ruckwork, and they needed a ruckman.

I don't look at the stats, I look at the game with my eyes. I produced stats because you use empirical evidence as your crutch, and I'm showing you they don't support what you suggest. That's all.
I rely on my eyes and I see what Gorringe brings to the ruck and it is not AFL standard. Don't you agree with that?

The point is do we have 2 rucks or do we have 1 and a Gorringe or Casboult as the 2nd ruck
I have always been in the 2 rucks camp as I would never go in with only 1 bonafide in a GF or elimination final in case Ruck No 1 breaks down, so I stick with that furing the H&A, and Kreuzer is susceptible to injury if you consider him No 1 ruck.

Do you remember what Gorringe does in the ruck? He isn't very good. Philips is better, hands down. Imagine what Mumford will do to Gorringe. Refer to Goldstein contest.
Now, go back to last game and see what happened to us in the middle when Gorringe took on the Saints' apprentice ruck...we got smashed, and lost the game from there...cost us 4 goals.

I hope Gorringe can improve, and jimmae those critical of Kreuzer's ruck work are not relying on stats, they use their eyes. Philips seems to nullify the opposition ruckman by jumping and contesting. That is an asset. Kreuzer, like Gorringe also avoids contact in the centre. It shits me no end. I want a contest. I want effort.

Personally I'm not thrilled with any of the 3 ruckmen. I do know Philips is only 23 and there's the upside imo.
Just saying I would like to give our mids an even chance against their opponents, and I think Philips does that best....nothing to do with bygone era.

You've pigeon holed Philips, and because you have made up your mind about him and you have holed him in your 'White' category.
I know you want to be right about them both, and you will argue the point till the cows come home to save face. I see where you are coming from.

You may be right about Gorringe in the long run (I doubt it), but lets not base arguments on modern footy. Reigning premiers had Hale and McEvoy (2 bonafide ruckmen discarded by their teams). Last year was not a bygone era.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Picking a player purely for 20-30% of the total contribution to one position on the field is akin to cutting off your arm because you don't like the way your hand looks. Aesthetic is, and should always be the last consideration for a professional sports team.

Mumford's injured, and he would rag-doll all of our rucks except Kreuzer.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

if we can stop there running style ,close pressure them up we are a chance,unfortunately the game will open up at some stage and this will expose our lack of LEG SPEED again.

Phillips is 25 in a fortnight, and there is no evidence to support any other statement you've made there.


We won the hitouts and lost the clearances like clockwork with Kreuzer and Phillips as the ruck combination because it cost us midfield support and forward options without them showing any real craft. Kreuzer grinds it out with follow-up efforts and midfield pressure and that works to our advantage in the overwhelming majority of stoppages because almost every opposition ruck in the league isn't going to get over 35% of their hitouts to advantage.

So essentially you're worried about 35% of up to 60% of hitouts, which is 1 in 5 stoppages. That's the thing you want to improve so desperately at the expense of all else. I'll grant you that the number probably jumps to 1 in 4 on a bad day for us, and that the bulk of these would be centre clearances, but you don't think a centre clearance unit that consistently uses Cripps and Gibbs is going to get jumped on the outside?

If Phillips could just coordinate and tap it to the right area for a set play we seemingly don't have, I'd advocate for him. But he's [REDACTED] that up when given the opportunity, and we've got Barker devising our stoppage plays. So the only advantage is how high he gets in the air. That's it.


No, I've pointed out we create a larger problem by trying to fix a smaller one, and that Phillips needs to lift his form. Phillips was likely one of the GWS4 trade requirements from GWS' perspective because he was battling at the bottom of the pile for the ruck role with the more naturally talented Downie, and they had a ruck/forward coming in with Flynn. I reckon we had to take him.


I'm picking Gorringe as a forward first, ruck second, and Hale had an exceptional goal-scoring record for a player seen as a ruck before and after being traded to Hawthorn. He was a genuine forward/ruck, who the Hawks trained up to be a competent ruck after years of frustrating form for North. Phillips is the reverse of that, which is terrible when you have a starting ruck who can happily handle 75% of the ruck contests.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

That's how Adelaide played them a few weeks ago. GWS just imploded under the pressure and started gobbing off at each other.

OK jimmae, I don't agree with anything you put said in that last post. None, zip and zilch.

You exaggerate, use emotive language, analogies and metaphors. You make up numbers and percentages on the fly. I prefer to stick with footy and facts and my eyes. You love that word "likely" and "I reckon" to support your made up hypothesis. You make up things. It's guess work and yet you try and make it sound empirical with your pitch.

You give no credit to anything Philips does except jump high . You're an idiot if that's you summary of him.
How can I take you serious? Are you serious? Do you take your arguments serious or are you trying to convince me you're convincing. Philips does accumulate numbers, looks like a better mark than our K and he kicks goals...but that doesn't suit your argument...so all you say he does is jump high.

Kreuzer does not mop up as you think he does. Have a look at his disposal numbers! He doesn't rack them up. Other than the Geelong game he runs around like a headless chook chasing ball making no big contribution if we are to be serious. He's cumbersome. If he did follow up his hit outs our clearances would be higher. Some think he's the best we've got, and after the Geelong game I started thinking that too. He's just heart and soul and that's what I keep hearing.

The Hale argument...what a load of crap. He was a ruckman!! Youi say Hawks made him one. Did they do the same for McEvoy? You don't mention him, or the point about 2 ruckmen.

Philips jumping into an opponents is supported by recorded footage, that's all the support needed.

Kreuzer avoids contact at the centre bounce. Watch a game, any game and you will see s modus operandi at centre bounce. You'd be the only person I know who hasn't seen that game after game. Other shave noticed it and posted, and you've missed it?

I'm not the gullible type jimmae, and normally I'm a fan of yours, but I'm not even going to try and have a dumb discussion if you are going to exaggerate and avoid facts. Is TC and BF where you practise your script writing for politicians?

Bottom line is Kreuzer Philips and Gorringe are not great rucks who are going to lead us to the promised land...and Cripps gets his own ball, not from his ruckmen.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/s ... e3c48697ab

The total number of hitouts and clearances are easy to find.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

.....that was a close one.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

GWS playing at Spotless oval are a superior finely tuned talent machine, which very few teams in competition can keep up with let alone the Blues in rebuilding mode.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, definitely keep positive and I hope the Baggers have a real crack and give me a great birthday gift, but a loss between 30 to 40 points would not be disappointing, this mob are very very good a home.
Go Baggers

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Go Blue Boys

They beat the Hawks there by a billion points.

beaten by 5-10 goals would be ok.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

a) Am still looking for the same things as I was at the beginning of the year: Gameplan, intensity/commitment, seniors leading, juniors showing something. Win/loss less important (although it has been great to feel what winning is like...)

b) Bondi/Jimmae - I think you've both made your views clear and provided your reasons, thanks (genuinely). Can we let it go now? There is no definitive answer anyway; different coaches will have different criteria for each of the different ruckmen on their list (depending on what they can bring) as well as for how they contribute to the team overall. I am happy that one thing I have discovered this season is that I have confidence in Bolton and am sure he knows what he's doing. It is great fun to observe and analyse but it ceases to become fun (certainly for me) when you just keep repeated your already stated views and, worse, start abusing each other.

c) Now, anyone have any tips about who will play this week? I'd be surprised if Silvagni plays. Suspect we will see Phillips in for Gorringe and that's about it. Would like to see Jaksch & Silvagni in during second half of the season. For Jaksch, only if he consistently delivers on the criteria that the coaches have set for him - i.e. when he is ready. For Silvagni, happy just to give him a taste at some point even if not quite ready (I think his appetite for the contest will help him as distinct from Jaksch who needs to find his appetite...). I'd love to see McKay get a taste as well but just as happy for him to develop in the VFL for the rest of the year.

I have some very reliable sources who will provide me with these details in approximately 3-4 hours. I'll keep you posted

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@cecil_anderson