Kreuzer is 26, averages 13 disposals, 4 marks and 21 hit outs per game and we're hoping to get pick two for him.

Martin is 28, averages 21 disposals, 6 marks and 31 hit outs per game and you scoff at pick 10.

Don't care whether we're "rebuilding" or not, getting good players on the list is always a good thing.

Targeting under 24 year olds landed us Jones and Tutt. That worked out well.

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Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight, don't blame it on the good times, blame it on the WIGGINS!

Yep let's trade out pick 10 which should be a 10 year plus good player for a ruck for a few years whilst we're cellar dwellers.

It's also hilarious to compare Tutt in the psd or Dick as a DFA to trading PICK 10

Not worth it unless we are ready to contend within 1-2 years.

Much better using pick 10 on a young player, going with stopgaps for a year or two and then picking someone up once we see how the rebuild is shaping up/have a very good idea when our 'window' might be

Part of the reason I don't post often on these forums is due to the inevitable smart arse and unnecessarily disrespectful responses like the one you provided.

If you disagree, just say you disagree. Is there any need to belittle what someone has posted (who you've never met or interacted with before)?

What value does that add to the forum?

Was suggesting trading pick 10 for an almost all Australian player the most laughable thing you've seen posted today?

Would he provide more value than our other first round picks of recent years in Lucas, Watson, Bootsma and Boekhorst?

I would think so.

Would he provide as much value as Paddy Cripps? Probably not.

Did I say we definitely need to trade pick 10 for Martin? No.

The point is it's debatable, and I was led to believe that's what these forums were for.

Not being rude and dismissive to people you've never met before.

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Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight, don't blame it on the good times, blame it on the WIGGINS!

Welcome to Carlton Jacob Weitering.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Thanks for responding in a civil manner.

What about pick 20?

The reason I put this on the table is I'm sure the members, players, coaching staff and board have little interest in seeing a substandard side run around for the next few years.

I know I personally want to see us be competitive.

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Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight, don't blame it on the good times, blame it on the WIGGINS!

You for seeing 2004 all over again.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Because there are so many similarities between what I posted and what happened in 2003.

I forgot Mick Martyn circa 2003 and Stefan Martin circa 2014 are the same.

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Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight, don't blame it on the good times, blame it on the WIGGINS!

I don't want band aids and wallpaper.

I want sustainable and long term strategic list management.

If you think Stefan Msrtin is going to be part of our next premiership side then all power to you

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

IF you think that was dismissive or belittling then I apologise because that was not my intention and I re-reading it I don't think it was. Is trading pick 10 for Martin not trading away a 10+ year player for a ruck that will only be good whilst we're crap?

I don't want band aids and wallpaper.

I want sustainable and long term strategic list management.

If you think Stefan Msrtin is going to be part of our next premiership side then all power to you [/quote]

I'd be curious to know how sustainable finishing on the bottom for the next three years is for the club.

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Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight, don't blame it on the good times, blame it on the WIGGINS!

Given the apparent shallow draft depth I'd trade pick 20 for martin - I doubt the lions wouldn't accept it though.

The way I see it, our lack of competitiveness is due to the complete lack of direction within the club over the past 3 years - game plans, list development, team cohesion etc - rucks are the least of our worries.

Direction and competitiveness will come through the following
- having an actual coach signed up that is able to imprint his style from ground zero (barker doesnt count, you need at least one preseason)
- having a reasonably fit midfield -> don't forger that we've effectively judd, thomas, gibbs, graham will all end up missing >50% of the season. For 2016, murphy, gibbs, cripps (fitter), boekhurst (fitter), curnow, graham, bell, fit irish boys X2 as options floating through more often than not will help competitiveness
- having a forward pocket/crumber -> assuming yarran is gone, buckley & armfield would be the only 2 that I'd consider capable of being genuine crumbers - give them a go in that role and pick someone up in the draft.

Whilst I understand your wish for competitiveness, I think its the lack of direction that kills supporters. Most of us can put up with some mediocrity provided there are enough glimpses of the future. It is also possible to be competitive without overspending on stopgap solutions (martin being a stopgap based on age profile)

Going back to the way that I'd approach this offseason...

I'd happily let kreuzer (age profile, compo), henderson (heart/non-competitive), yarran (heart/non-competitive) & menzel (heart/non-competitive) go if it meant we ended up with...
2015 -> 3 X 1st round picks (1, 2 & 10)
2016 -> 3 X 1st round picks (blues, yarran & menzel trades)

2015 -> picks 1 & 2 for weitering francis - both competitive beasts, good marks, elite kicking, physically ready & are good at reading the play. From reports it would appear Schache is a peg below in terms of being an absolute competitor. Pick 10 would be best available with an eye towards competitive + disposal rather than other traits.
2016 -> load up on best available again with an eye towards players that are competitive + have very good disposal.

Also use 2016 to hit FA -> we won't have anyone of note that would cost us compo, so that is the time to bring in a player that can slot straight into the 22.

Imo, our issue over the past few years has been that we rarely look for absolute competitiveness in our early picks - Just look back at some of our early picks for proof -> menzel, yarran were largely picked on talent/x-factor, bootsma on physical attributes/upside, watson on kicking ability/needs, hampson on athletic potential, grigg on athletic potential, lucas on athletic ability - and that is just off the top of my head!

The best players aren't necessarily the most physically gifted or have the best skills - they tend to be the ones that work the hardest, extract every ounce of talent, be gutted when we lose and work harder again.

How many of those players do we have on our list? and perhaps more importantly, why have the majority of the players that we've picked up with those traits come from the rookie list rather than our early draft selections?

/rant over

Nature of the internet/forums - surprised you couldn't pick it up. I wouldn't normally do this but just as a quick FYI - First sentence was sarcastic, second sentence was unnecessarily dismissive ('hilarious').

You could have gotten the same point across by saying that you disagreed with the trade b/c we'd be giving up a 10 year player for a ruck that would only be around for a few years whilst we were cellar dwellers and then stating that the comparison with tutt/dick pickups cost PSD/DFA rather than pick 10.

Well said.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

Blues87, I wouldn't be putting Boek in the Lucas, Watson, Bootsma bin just yet. He's been one of our best performers in the last two weeks .

And Stefan should go to a side looking the goods .

He might be a good fit for the Doggies or even Sydney.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

Fair enough. I won't write him off yet.
He could be as good as Jordan Russell when he finished 2nd in the B&F or he could be as good as Jordan Russell two years before or after that season.

I was just making the point that pick 10 is not a guaranteed 10 year player. It is merely the opportunity to draft a 10 year player.

Melbourne thought they had a 10 year forward when they drafted Lucas Cook, he was delisted two years later.

It depends on how confident you are about our recruiters getting it right. Otherwise, a ruckman in the hand is worth pick 10 in the nest.

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Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight, don't blame it on the good times, blame it on the WIGGINS!

ok ... so we're starting to take shape with our picks and the players who won't be here.

in
weitering

out
yarran, henderson, watson etc ...

I wonder if we're in line for a priority pick and what pick that would be?

could we package yarran or henderson and get picks 1 & 3 and go for a:

weitering and francis, or in lieu of pick 3, go curnow later on
along with
Silvagni & rice
draft a project ruckman

and that's a fair turnover of young talent to go with cripps, doc, kreuz, murphy etc ...

i'd straight up delist jones and take his cap hit on the chin at this point too. we should not be anywhere near the cap limit with this team next season.

We will need mature bodies such as Jones to assist in filling out the seniors and vfl team with all the young guys we'll have.
It's part of list balance.

Jones is going nowhere.... and could deliver some good footy under a new coaching panel.

I like Martin but not for us at the moment. I would trade Kruezer if a top 10 pick was available. Good ruckman but nothing special and easily replaceable when time is right. I've always seen a ruck as the last piece of the puzzle. Look at Swans w Mumford, Hawks w McEvoy or Collingwood w Jolly.

We could easily get a Jamar type to fill in for 2-3 years whilst we develop our own. Still have Wood as well and the big American. We just need a big body to protect our young mids whilst they develop.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

provided you're not completely drunk right now, your positivity is a breath of fresh air. haha