Jimmae, you sure that's not one of them 'I'll only use the info that suits my argument," type argument?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

That's what I'm saying about them...

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Don't throw FACTS at me, it only confuses the issue. Just let me argue in peace because I know a lot.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

7 of the past 8 AFL premierships Jim. They're extraordinarily lucky to have that info to throw around to suit their argument.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

3 teams have won 7 of the past 8 premierships, and each club has well-lauded list management and a wealth of drafting riches. Are we certain a series of leadership seminars did the trick?

It's a simple enough question, but in the modern age repeating patterns are still treated with mysticism in sporting circles. I'll be sure not to throw away anyone's lucky sock or interrupt their pre-match ritual alongside not questioning if money was well spent.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

It is a small piece in a big jigsaw puzzle.
A leading teams type program needs to be implemented with the write type of people.
If your senior players don't embrace it, you can wipe your arse with it.

Journalists?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

players love mick. Ofcourse they do. When your being interviewed your not going to say anything negative about the coach. You dont want to be in his dog house.

Well done to mick for tinkering with the game plan a little. Not too sure about rowe starting in fwd line after cementing a role and henderson swung back as the wheels fall off a bit against geelong. Shows the gp will go back to normal quickly with that attitude.

Mick might have changed the game plan, got the players going in the right direction, but its all too late. Doesn't have the cattle. no betts, no waite, no inform garlett, no scotland, no macca, no robbo. Cant replace a cpl of those players over night. But, i hope l am wrong. An injury to a cpl top liners and it spells of bottom 4. But, i still think we should make the top 8 with this easy draw and luck with no injuries. But, comes down to the mick. By round 6 he will be blaming the list or talking up the window being back on.

we need to make the eigtht this year or nobody can hide from the spotlight... including mick...thats from the very top all the way down...

thats my stance

the days of "theyre young give them time is over"

but the microscope should start at the very top

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

leading teams can only work if the whole of the club... not just the team, embraces honesty

the problem with our club is it isnt an honest club... its all about hot air and bluster and silver bullets and bravado based on feats of yesteryear

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Mick should get the 4 to 5 years a new coach needs to renew a list. I said that when he was appointed. We must see improvement but I wouldnt be cut and dried on making the 8, if we finish with a bullet, develop youth, improve the win loss record and finish 8th to 10th. It is a pass in my opinion. Year 4 or 5 are the make or break year. This is the downside to 3 year appointments of new coaches.

You know any system is not fullproof. These external organisations are staffed with human beings not gods. If you dont have the leadership cattle then you dont have them. You cant turn an introverted leadership group into extroverts - Judd Murphy Gibbs Carazzo Henderson Walker Simpson Kreuzer Yarran everitt are all on the quiet side. They are all great leaders on the field by their onfield deeds. But are they the "type" that these system organisations need to implement their systems through.

I also think that great coaches are people that these system driven organisations analyse and hope to teach to other coaches. Mick is one of them. Sometimes the natural is better than the manufactured.

mick intuitively knew that we had a leadership/introvert problem and targeted Daisy, not just for his talent but also his outgoing personality.

The assistant coaches are an interesting one. It seems that people here get fixated on a particular favorite ex player that they want as our assistant. Ling being an obvious example- what evidence do we have that he would do any better than our existing assistants? What we need to do is be realistic with the results that we can expect from our list and injuries in a given year, and judge the coaches on that basis. Our List has been overhauled and is healthy atm. Lets judge the results going forward. Its too easy to project our own judgments as to who would make a great assistant and want to blame our system for not attracting them, but the reality is that these higher profile assistants are just a subset of a massive pool of ex players potentially available as assistants. The reality is also that there are not enough positions to go around. So I find it hard to believe that Mick is unable to attract decent assistants. Its more a case of people not agreeing with the assistants that have been appointed. Again the results havent been good, but surely our well documented and bemoaned recruiting failures are more relevant than our assistants

That's what I believe...but whose to know?

Which assistant could bring out the best of Lucas? Will he better under the tuition of the WCE Assistants.

Somewhere along the line a player decides what he has to do in battle for the team when there isnt an assistant in his ear.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

What experience do you have with "these organisations"? Do you have any concept of what they actually do? Do they require a "type" of player to have success? It seems to me you've packaged more guesswork into one post than Jim has in this whole thread.



So you think these organisations teach coaches the behaviours of 'great coaches" like Mick? Mick is the opposite of what these organisations teach. And let me tell you, in recent years, their system is giving Micks a flogging when it comes to success. Undisputed fact!



Did you consider that perhaps our recruiting has been less than ideal at times AND our assistant coaches are less than ideal as well.
Just maybe, the blame doesn't all belong in one area. Every aspect of the club should be under scrutiny. You can't just scoff at the recruiting and think everything is magically solved.
Assistant coaches won't come to a club where they can't grow in the role. That's why we've had a plethora of assistant coaches knock us back over the years. It not about money. It's about taking a role that encourages growth and improvement.
What extra responsibility have you seen Green, Barker or Capuano take in the past 2 years? Hell, even the club wouldn't give them the reins when Mick was absent.
They're cone movers and ball fetchers. Quality people with ambition wouldn't entertain the roles we offer. Even some of Micks beloved ex-players laughed at us. We're an autocracy. No decent assistant coach who is in demand would entertain coming into a system like that.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

What experience do you have with "these organisations"? Do you have any concept of what they actually do? Do they require a "type" of player to have success? It seems to me you've packaged more guesswork into one post than Jim has in this whole thread.

I believe that all management consultant organisations are tarred with the same brush. They can do wonders to truly dysfunctional management practices. But they are limited. They cant do the impossible. God like worship of them is just dumb. If the current problems are due to current mismanagement then they can help. If the current problems are much more structural in nature then they are unable to impact. Could management consultants turn around the Railroad companies in America ? Could management consultants turn around Enron or MCI worldcom? No - there is a limit to their abilities.
Companies that have made bad strategic decisions in the past can get in the best managers and they struggle to turn them around eg marissa mayer and yahoo. Yahoo is not going to fail, but it is hard to really sparkle too given the legacy handed to management. Management consultants would not help at all .
Sport is no different . Strategic decisions that have backfired do have an effect going forward.

So you think these organisations teach coaches the behaviours of 'great coaches" like Mick? Mick is the opposite of what these organisations teach. And let me tell you, in recent years, their system is giving Micks a flogging when it comes to success. Undisputed fact!

Ok lets start with some facts. What do these organisations teach?

Did you consider that perhaps our recruiting has been less than ideal at times AND our assistant coaches are less than ideal as well.
Just maybe, the blame doesn't all belong in one area. Every aspect of the club should be under scrutiny. You can't just scoff at the recruiting and think everything is magically solved.
Assistant coaches won't come to a club where they can't grow in the role. That's why we've had a plethora of assistant coaches knock us back over the years. It not about money. It's about taking a role that encourages growth and improvement.
What extra responsibility have you seen Green, Barker or Capuano take in the past 2 years? Hell, even the club wouldn't give them the reins when Mick was absent.
They're cone movers and ball fetchers. Quality people with ambition wouldn't entertain the roles we offer. Even some of Micks beloved ex-players laughed at us. We're an autocracy. No decent assistant coach who is in demand would entertain coming into a system like that.

yes our recruiting has been less than ideal. So has our selection of coaches. Historical strategic decisions going back to Elliot - keeping our ageing stars too long, the penalties have taken a very long time to get us back to an even playing field. Only now have we anything approaching depth. Strategic blunders continued with our recruiting and the concomitant draft tampering by the AFL in recent times.

But do we have to throw everything out and start again, just because we havent got your view of best assistants?

And isn't that the point. You've told us who these system driven organisations analyse and teach to other coaches. You've told us what sort of players they will be effective with. You've told us "they're all tarred with the same brush", you've told us what they can and cannot do and then you make the most accurate statement of all, "what do these organisations teach"
You don't know, do you?

Instead of bagging groups and programmes you appear to know little about. Why don't you do some research about them first. And while your at it, ask the successful clubs over the past number of years how they have become far more successful than us in all areas and why we are going backwards.
And when you get the answer, tell Mick who shares the same close minded view.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Im not bagging them, Im saying they have limitations. i have explained that. I do know the nature of these organisations across many industries. I know their methodology and approach. I choose not to have blind faith in them. They can work wonders and they can be ineffectual depending on the root cause of the problems, I have also explained that . If you choose to nail all your hopes onto the mast of one of these companies- thats your decision. Ask yourself though, what would be the result if all 18 AFL clubs engaged the services of these types of guys? Would we all be 'excellent"all be playing finals? all be top 4 ? No. There would be a variation in the responses of the clubs to this sort of management. Which gets me back to my original point .

But enough about me, lets talk about you. What do you know that gives you such great confidence that their methodology would work for our list as it stands?

Fantastic, tell us how they operate. What is their methodology and approach?



The outcomes are not 100% successful or 100% failure. It doesn't have to be extremes.
Yet you keep making comments like "blind faith" etc. No one has stated anywhere that they have blind faith in them or think they are "god" like, they have "great confidence" or their systems are "foolproof".
It's the adds nothing to the debate. Yet I suspect you know that.

What I do know is they are associated with the elite teams. The coaches and players speak highly off their contribution to their success. I suspect that's more valuable than the jack shit we currently have in place.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I suspect that's more valuable than the jack shit we currently have in place""

i guess thats where we will have to agree to disagree