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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:34 am 
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Robert Walls
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Mosquito Fleet wrote:
trublu wrote:
I'm all for change. What we have had in the past clearly hasn't worked. To many factions, distractions and all that jazz.

I don't mind the idea of a committee canvasing good strong candidates for board positions so long as independents can still nominate.

I just want board bickering and people like Marcus Rose running to media. Thats a typical Carlton of old we are tired of.

Marcus you have had your time in the sun, now move on and lets someone else give it a good crack please.

#TEAMUNITY


spot on. Rose was saying in the Herald Sun (a paper that supports Essendon** by the way) that the amendments are non-democratic. This is an argument with no foundation nor basis.


but the changes, if passed do water down the democratic process. Thats obvious.

All members should be allowed to run for board positions on an equal footing, without the charade of some applicants receiving endorsement from a so called "independent" committee and some not receiving endorsement.

And if this resolution is passed on the 18th December and we continue to perform poorly onfield, I can see these constitutional changes being tested and abused in elections down the track

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:55 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
@cretylus...your arguments are inconsistent with the legal interpretation of the amendments.

MF

wasnt the constitution changed several years ago which allowed a board appointed replacement director to serve out the remaining tenure of a recently retired or removed director?

I have no issues with the board appointing directors as long as they face the members in the next scheduled AGM - which is still the case, outside the specific situation I mentioned before (which i dont agree with anyway - but several hundred members at an AGM put their hands up anyway and passed that resolution with very little discussion).

The first issue I have is with the charade of calling the nominations committee independent when the current president sits on it and there are two other personnel closely linked to the club sitting on it as well. This is hardly independent.

The second and main objection which I raise in this thread, is the inclusion of the 9.3 clause which allows for additional conditions or requirements to be placed on any nominees wishing to run for board positions.

I can see abuse of this clause down the track, as well as possible litigation by applicants (discrimination etc).

We dont need it included in our constitution. The club can set up a nominations committee tomorrow to ensure all applicants meet the basic requirements for running in elections. We have that administrative step in place already.

These resolutions are proposed for a very good reason - and its got nothing to do with the rank and file members or democracy. :wink:

Our club is slowly becoming a corporate and private cult


it could be argued that a corporate private cult is happened to date under the elliott and sticks board..the new INC is not a gate keeper. its a screen that a few clubs have. carlton is a company under ASIC legislation and rules whereby directors must satisfy statutory standards. The additional conditions or requirements can be used to ensure that the Board is properly represented. we don't want too many lawyers and accountants on the board for example. if there is a bad board in your view that abuses the rules, all members have the 100 signature EGM to remove them if necessary. in addition to the board reduced to 6 to 10, this is a good amendment to benefit the club..


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Mosquito Fleet wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
@cretylus...your arguments are inconsistent with the legal interpretation of the amendments.

MF

wasnt the constitution changed several years ago which allowed a board appointed replacement director to serve out the remaining tenure of a recently retired or removed director?

I have no issues with the board appointing directors as long as they face the members in the next scheduled AGM - which is still the case, outside the specific situation I mentioned before (which i dont agree with anyway - but several hundred members at an AGM put their hands up anyway and passed that resolution with very little discussion).

The first issue I have is with the charade of calling the nominations committee independent when the current president sits on it and there are two other personnel closely linked to the club sitting on it as well. This is hardly independent.

The second and main objection which I raise in this thread, is the inclusion of the 9.3 clause which allows for additional conditions or requirements to be placed on any nominees wishing to run for board positions.

I can see abuse of this clause down the track, as well as possible litigation by applicants (discrimination etc).

We dont need it included in our constitution. The club can set up a nominations committee tomorrow to ensure all applicants meet the basic requirements for running in elections. We have that administrative step in place already.

These resolutions are proposed for a very good reason - and its got nothing to do with the rank and file members or democracy. :wink:

Our club is slowly becoming a corporate and private cult


it could be argued that a corporate private cult is happened to date under the elliott and sticks board..the new INC is not a gate keeper. its a screen that a few clubs have. carlton is a company under ASIC legislation and rules whereby directors must satisfy statutory standards. The additional conditions or requirements can be used to ensure that the Board is properly represented. we don't want too many lawyers and accountants on the board for example. if there is a bad board in your view that abuses the rules, all members have the 100 signature EGM to remove them if necessary. in addition to the board reduced to 6 to 10, this is a good amendment to benefit the club..


I agree that the corporate private cult predates the current board.

I want the best directors we can assemble on the board.

If that means a board with 10 lawyers, or 10 Rhodes Scholars, or 5 circus acts and 5 magicians, 8 ex ASIO agents and 2 ex premiers, it really shouldnt matter.

This is a classic power play from the elite at the club. This board now officially communicates with the Young carlton Professionals. Another recent exclusive club that has an age limit and professional or business qualification entrance requirement.

We have been a circus for some years now, we are now fusing into a private corporate circus

Remember the board is supposed to represent the ordinary membership base - that's who votes them in.

people can vote whichever way they wish - I just hope more than a few hundred members actually vote. A low voter turn out will ensure that this resolution is passed IMO

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
@cretylus...your arguments are inconsistent with the legal interpretation of the amendments.

I agree that the corporate private cult predates the current board.

I want the best directors we can assemble on the board.

If that means a board with 10 lawyers, or 10 Rhodes Scholars, or 5 circus acts and 5 magicians, 8 ex ASIO agents and 2 ex premiers, it really shouldnt matter.

This is a classic power play from the elite at the club. This board now officially communicates with the Young carlton Professionals. Another recent exclusive club that has an age limit and professional or business qualification entrance requirement.

We have been a circus for some years now, we are now fusing into a private corporate circus

Remember the board is supposed to represent the ordinary membership base - that's who votes them in.

people can vote whichever way they wish - I just hope more than a few hundred members actually vote. A low voter turn out will ensure that this resolution is passed IMO


contrary to your view, its a well accepted principle of corporate governance that Boards must have a collection of discrete skills and abilities.
10 lawyers would not be helpful unless you are a law firm. 10 Rhodes Scholars, or 5 circus acts and 5 magicians, 8 ex ASIO agents is just being unhelpful.
the board communicates with all stakeholders. Unfortunately, our constitution does not directly elect directors by members which would be my preferred position. They are either invited on or someone outside applies the latter requiring an election of members. Under the INC all new entrants appears to have to run through that open public channel which is a good thing


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:48 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Mosquito Fleet wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
@cretylus...your arguments are inconsistent with the legal interpretation of the amendments.

I agree that the corporate private cult predates the current board.

I want the best directors we can assemble on the board.

If that means a board with 10 lawyers, or 10 Rhodes Scholars, or 5 circus acts and 5 magicians, 8 ex ASIO agents and 2 ex premiers, it really shouldnt matter.

This is a classic power play from the elite at the club. This board now officially communicates with the Young carlton Professionals. Another recent exclusive club that has an age limit and professional or business qualification entrance requirement.

We have been a circus for some years now, we are now fusing into a private corporate circus

Remember the board is supposed to represent the ordinary membership base - that's who votes them in.

people can vote whichever way they wish - I just hope more than a few hundred members actually vote. A low voter turn out will ensure that this resolution is passed IMO


contrary to your view, its a well accepted principle of corporate governance that Boards must have a collection of discrete skills and abilities.
10 lawyers would not be helpful unless you are a law firm. 10 Rhodes Scholars, or 5 circus acts and 5 magicians, 8 ex ASIO agents is just being unhelpful.
the board communicates with all stakeholders. Unfortunately, our constitution does not directly elect directors by members which would be my preferred position. They are either invited on or someone outside applies the latter requiring an election of members. Under the INC all new entrants appears to have to run through that open public channel which is a good thing


We already have a final say on who can serve as director on our board

its called an election.

All the paid up members of our club are part of this "Nominee ratification Committee" - each member gets one vote, equal say. I believe its called an aspect of democratic process.

List the corporations and clubs where these proposed resolutions are in effect

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Cretylus wrote:
We already have a final say on who can serve as director on our board

its called an election.

All the paid up members of our club are part of this "Nominee ratification Committee" - each member gets one vote, equal say. I believe its called an aspect of democratic process.

List the corporations and clubs where these proposed resolutions are in effect


As the President says, a number of other football clubs have similar committees, including Greater Western Sydney, Hawthorn, Essendon*, Richmond (and indeed the AFL itself has a nominations committee on which the Chairman sits.)

the current Carlton constitutional arrangements means that if no one outside the Board nominates, there is no direct "election" by members - just a ratification at the next AGM of the current directors that are notionally up for "re election"


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:02 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Mosquito Fleet wrote:
Cretylus wrote:
We already have a final say on who can serve as director on our board

its called an election.

All the paid up members of our club are part of this "Nominee ratification Committee" - each member gets one vote, equal say. I believe its called an aspect of democratic process.

List the corporations and clubs where these proposed resolutions are in effect


As the President says, a number of other football clubs have similar committees, including Greater Western Sydney, Hawthorn, Essendon**, Richmond (and indeed the AFL itself has a nominations committee on which the Chairman sits.)

the current Carlton constitutional arrangements means that if no one outside the Board nominates, there is no direct "election" by members - just a ratification at the next AGM of the current directors that are notionally up for "re election"



well you better vote YES so the club can go forward

We wouldnt want just ANYBODY running for board positions in elections. We cant re4ally trust the members to cast a valued judgement vote on who is worthy of nominating and running and will be in the best interests of the club. I dont like this move, stinks.

What does Similar committees mean? What powers do they have, who sits on them,.? have you seen the nomination committees at those other 4 clubs? The AFL doesnt matter - it has a different corporate structure and function where clubs vote on certain issues pertaining to the commission.\ composition.

frankly I dont care what other clubs do. I am looking at this resolution and I can only conclude ONE thing

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:17 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Cretylus wrote:
Mosquito Fleet wrote:
Cretylus wrote:

well you better vote YES so the club can go forward

We wouldnt want just ANYBODY running for board positions in elections. We cant re4ally trust the members to cast a valued judgement vote on who is worthy of nominating and running and will be in the best interests of the club. I dont like this move, stinks.

What does Similar committees mean? What powers do they have, who sits on them,.? have you seen the nomination committees at those other 4 clubs? The AFL doesnt matter - it has a different corporate structure and function where clubs vote on certain issues pertaining to the commission.\ composition.

frankly I dont care what other clubs do. I am looking at this resolution and I can only conclude ONE thing


every person has the right to run for the board - they all just have to run through the INC
if the INC do not recommend, that person can still run for the board by election
there is nothing wrong with being public and accountable with the INC
As Carlton is now a $56.6 million dollar business there are statutory corporate duties as directors.
the constitutional amendments are all proper and accountable...


Last edited by Mosquito Fleet on Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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That makes no sense.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:01 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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What happens when the President of the day completes a three year term as a director and is up for election? Does he/she stand aside from the INC, or continue to sit on the INC and recommend that none of the potential candidates is worthy of "taking my spot.... I mean, being on the CFC Board".

Massive conflict.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:24 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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How is that committee at all independent?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:25 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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How does an admission committee increase accountability?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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How does it decrease accountability or make it less independent?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:08 am 
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Bruce Doull
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just do what i do... dont give the club a cent and let the oligarchs keep it...

but they shouldnt be pretending this is a club for everybody.....

its Carlton inc.

thats all.... its a business.. its not people.

let them have it... i dont mind...

nice night last night.. had a partagas d4 and a fatyak beer..

Plenty of ways to spend my money and i do...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:01 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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teagueyubeauty wrote:
How does it decrease accountability or make it less independent?


:donk: holding pattern

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:44 am 
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Craig Bradley

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:lol: chicken little pattern

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:05 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Something like that.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:35 am 
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Vale 1953-2020
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It's so funny. Our club has been SO SO SO undemocratic for so long, that some people now accept slightly less non-democracy as an improvement.

Great, you prefer a shit sandwich with wholemeal bread because it's healthier than white bread. You fools - it's still a shit sandwich!!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:18 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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How "independent" are these Board approved nominations committee members?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Robert Walls
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......perfectly independent from the ordinary members

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