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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:43 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Michael Jezz wrote:
The arguement that Mick is a failed coach because he hasn't produced a premiership in 30 games ignores the fact that the regime before him left us with no development and a bad list. Kernahan might have said MM can win a premiership within his first contract. Where did MM say that? I remember him saying there were no limits. The MM hasn't won us a premiership line, is such a flimsy, shallow arguement against his coaching ability and the development of the players he has ie Gibbs attack on the ball, Rowe, White, Buckley, Menzel, Johnson, Wood, Everett. Casboult, Walker(last year). Afterall are Roos or Hinkley bad coaches because they have not won a premiership? I don't think MM can win won within 5 years with the players at his disposal plus the development required of new players but I am sure he will leave us in a position to challenge for top 4.

Mick was telling everyone we were at 11oclock

He started getting cranky when shown up as crap


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:00 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Hated the appointment from the moment it was annouced
Gone exactly how I expected it too


Ditto, but he has gone worse than I thought. I would have expected to be about where Adelaide is. I also share Big Kev's views on MM, but not his optimism about our direction.

I agree with others re the statistical assessment of coaches. I reckon Lyon and Eade were very good but they didn't get a flag, does that mean Chris Scott is better then them? The best coaches are those who get their team to be greater than the sum of its parts. Malthouse had a sublimely talented group at WCE and sure they won flags and he deserves credit, but i think his best performance was 2002 when he had a modestly talented side almost pinch a flag against the great Brisbane Lions outfit. If it is dividing seasons by flags then lets get Tony Jewell, Alan Joyce or Charlie Clymo


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:35 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Rexy wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
The arguement that Mick is a failed coach because he hasn't produced a premiership in 30 games ignores the fact that the regime before him left us with no development and a bad list. Kernahan might have said MM can win a premiership within his first contract. Where did MM say that? I remember him saying there were no limits. The MM hasn't won us a premiership line, is such a flimsy, shallow arguement against his coaching ability and the development of the players he has ie Gibbs attack on the ball, Rowe, White, Buckley, Menzel, Johnson, Wood, Everett. Casboult, Walker(last year). Afterall are Roos or Hinkley bad coaches because they have not won a premiership? I don't think MM can win won within 5 years with the players at his disposal plus the development required of new players but I am sure he will leave us in a position to challenge for top 4.

Mick was telling everyone we were at 11oclock

He started getting cranky when shown up as crap



actually while he did say that .. i think u missed the point

in fact mick was more controlled with euphoria about our list than everybody else at the club

HOMES is watching da Bachelor........

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:49 am
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GF statistical analysis is not that black & white!!

For a start we have moved from 12 teams to 14 to 15 to 16 to 18.

Gets harder every time


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:40 am 
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Robert Walls

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Michael Jezz wrote:
Where did MM say that?


Its not what he has said - it comes down to what he has done.

IF we need to rebuild for 2-3 years, you don't go recruiting thomas at the end of last season.

4 years @ 600k for a player that had pretty much lost 2 years of football due to ankle injuries and with no guarantee of getting back to his best (particularly given that a huge part of thomas' game had always been explosiveness).

Given the 'rebuild' how far are we from contending? On current showing most people would suggest 2016 would be extremely optimistic. By then we'd have sunk 1.8mill for a player that 'might' recapture the form shown in his glory days @ age 29?

Why not save the $$, bank the betts compensation pick and in the 2015/16 offseason pay big bucks for a FA when we are ready to contend? The pool for that FA period could potentially include -> dangerfield, cotchin, griffen, taylor walker, hawkins, birchall, andrew swallow & jack steven (+ others if free agent qualification is dropped to 7 yrs).

So why recruit thomas? - either we are a lot better than we've shown this year, or is a meal ticket for a mate. Take your pick.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:50 am 
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John Nicholls
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Completely agree with the above.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:56 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I am confused about this Thomas thing.
How do you save the big bucks when there is an amount you must pay each year?
Are we paying the full salary cap?
How much cash could we really save?
Would we have to be paying others overs?
How much would you pay Thomas in an ideal world?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:32 am 
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Bruce Doull
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dane wrote:
I am confused about this Thomas thing.
How do you save the big bucks when there is an amount you must pay each year?
Are we paying the full salary cap?
How much cash could we really save?
Would we have to be paying others overs?
How much would you pay Thomas in an ideal world?

You give more to Juddy... problem solved.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:15 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:06 am
Posts: 1826
Synbad wrote:
dane wrote:
I am confused about this Thomas thing.
How do you save the big bucks when there is an amount you must pay each year?
Are we paying the full salary cap?
How much cash could we really save?
Would we have to be paying others overs?
How much would you pay Thomas in an ideal world?

You give more to Juddy... problem solved.

Nah, split it between Watson and lucas.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:51 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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I think there is going to be some mechanism coming in where you can bank unpaid salary for a future year(s). Or at least it's been proposed. But it wouldn't have changed a contract signed last year.

On Thomas, I think;

If his output next year is the same or a marginal improvement on this year, then I think questions should be asked. He is clearly putting in to the extent his body allows. If his body doesn't improve over this coming preseason then he will most likely be looked at as a bust.

It's not only on field though. What sort of example is he setting at training, preparation, recovery etc. ? what leadership is he providing? How is he helping the younger players? Is he helping Mick instil his philosophy amongst the group? I would imagine that internally at least, Thomas' worth is not solely judged on two hours output on the weekend.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:51 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Synbad wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
The arguement that Mick is a failed coach because he hasn't produced a premiership in 30 games ignores the fact that the regime before him left us with no development and a bad list. Kernahan might have said MM can win a premiership within his first contract. Where did MM say that? I remember him saying there were no limits. The MM hasn't won us a premiership line, is such a flimsy, shallow arguement against his coaching ability and the development of the players he has ie Gibbs attack on the ball, Rowe, White, Buckley, Menzel, Johnson, Wood, Everett. Casboult, Walker(last year). Afterall are Roos or Hinkley bad coaches because they have not won a premiership? I don't think MM can win won within 5 years with the players at his disposal plus the development required of new players but I am sure he will leave us in a position to challenge for top 4.

Mick was telling everyone we were at 11oclock

He started getting cranky when shown up as crap



actually while he did say that .. i think u missed the point

in fact mick was more controlled with euphoria about our list than everybody else at the club

HOMES is watching da Bachelor........

The point is, a guy with questionable judgement and questionable PR skills is on $1m a year.

$1m a year on a ho hum coach ???


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18030
dane wrote:
I am confused about this Thomas thing.
How do you save the big bucks when there is an amount you must pay each year?
Are we paying the full salary cap?
How much cash could we really save?
Would we have to be paying others overs?
How much would you pay Thomas in an ideal world?


Front load contracts. Give Gibbs, Murphy etc more money this year and next which gives us flexibility to target young out of contract players in the next couple of years. e.g. GWS kids who want to return home. The TPP can be easily achieved with a bit of lateral thinking.

In an ideal world, I wouldn't get Thomas. You can't pay overs for a player who's physical capacity is extremely suspect. Especially when we are so far from a flag. When we are challenging, he'll be sitting in retirement counting his money. We need a plan and a direction. Do you see one Dane?
Are we challenging? Are we rebuilding with an apparent plan of bringing talented youth into the club or are we floating along with the appearance of little purpose?

I know which one looks more likely to me. The supporters and members will be far more likely to come along for the ride if they can see a definite plan and direction. I think that's part of the problem. We come out with blueprints and plans but we tend to deviate or fail to deliver.
It's the same in the football department.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Location: Steven Seagal's Martial Arts Academy
BigKev wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
how can you be happier now?


I thought that the original expectation of MM coming in and magically producing a premiership overnight, (in a football sense), was ridiculous. I thought sacking Ratten at the time was unfair and he should've got to serve out his contract. I also don't care much for the way MM conducts himself in media. He's someone I've enjoyed criticising for a long time.

That was then.

We've got passed all that initial fantasy and now I'm starting to see change that I like. I can see a change in how we're playing as a team and how certain individuals are playing. Slowly but surely we're becoming less "frilly" and more business like. Flashy players are either being dropped or are starting to become more accountable.

Will this lead to a flag? Who knows, but it's an approach that MM has used well at other clubs and I'm interested to see how things unfold here. If all goes well then next season we'll start to take a few top four scalps.


Great post - sums up how I feel about the difference between Mick and Ratts.

However he needs to get wins on the board.


Also he can't keep hiding behind his quote that we are playing more competitive footy against the best teams - what about the crap teams????

I know the comp is fairly even this year, but we have still got a long way to go to improve our mental fortitude.
We cannot have such predictable & consistent fadeouts to the bottom teams.

People say we are in danger of becoming "the new Richmond"
I think we are more in danger of becoming "the new Norf"

We are falling into that underdog mentality where we can't perform when everyone expects us to.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Blue Vain wrote:
We come out with blueprints and plans but we tend to deviate or fail to deliver.
It's the same in the football department.


Exactly - in the 'football department'. Headed by McKay!
Mick takes the fall in the media for everything that goes wrong, but when does the buck stop with McKay?

If he is the boss, he can take advice from Mick about what list strategy to pursue, but at the end of the day the decisions are McKay's responsibility.
If he's not up to it,
then hire a list manager already.

People on TC have the impression that Mick is the one who was primarily responsible for the decision to get Daisy - fair enough, that seems likely.

But if we had a strong, effective "head of footy/list manager/wannabe CEO" then they would either veto the decision, or take responsibility for it.

It should be McKay's decision based on advice from his employees in the footy department.


Anyway what's done is done.
Daisy still might provide good value for money in the back half of his contract.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:01 pm 
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Serge Silvagni

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 934
Bluey44 wrote:
BigKev wrote:
kingkerna wrote:
how can you be happier now?


I thought that the original expectation of MM coming in and magically producing a premiership overnight, (in a football sense), was ridiculous. I thought sacking Ratten at the time was unfair and he should've got to serve out his contract. I also don't care much for the way MM conducts himself in media. He's someone I've enjoyed criticising for a long time.

That was then.

We've got passed all that initial fantasy and now I'm starting to see change that I like. I can see a change in how we're playing as a team and how certain individuals are playing. Slowly but surely we're becoming less "frilly" and more business like. Flashy players are either being dropped or are starting to become more accountable.

Will this lead to a flag? Who knows, but it's an approach that MM has used well at other clubs and I'm interested to see how things unfold here. If all goes well then next season we'll start to take a few top four scalps.


Great post - sums up how I feel about the difference between Mick and Ratts.

However he needs to get wins on the board.


Also he can't keep hiding behind his quote that we are playing more competitive footy against the best teams - what about the crap teams????

I know the comp is fairly even this year, but we have still got a long way to go to improve our mental fortitude.
We cannot have such predictable & consistent fadeouts to the bottom teams.

People say we are in danger of becoming "the new Richmond"
I think we are more in danger of becoming "the new Norf"

We are falling into that underdog mentality where we can't perform when everyone expects us to.


i hope you are wrong about following the richmond north trend. I think you are. History shows that micks teams have a steely-ness to them that allows them to dominate the competition. CLEARLY our players are not there yet as this is still a weakness. But Mick is onto it and internally i am sure it his number one priority. Say what you like about Thomas, but it seems to me that he fits the mold of player that Mick thinks will help bring that steely ness to the group. THAT is why he was recruited.
I think years end we may be surprised at who gets let go. He clearly wants to change the mentality of the group , and if that is at the expense of skilled players that sometimes go missing, then so be it. That is the process that needs to be followed, to turn this group around. To that end I feel that Mick will encourage Judd to stick around, as he is an obvious example of mental toughness that we need, albeit playing a lesser role. I for one have found that the team as a whole has been playing better, more consistent football since judd has returned. Kreuzer is another player that we have missed, his competitiveness and never say die attitude is another key ingredient.

For me the blues under malthouse are almost the antithesis of the blues under ratten.

Under Ratten, we were flashy, sometimes brilliant, but always it seemed that we were over achieving, that there was a sense of brittleness to the side that eventually would be laid bare. That we were heading in the wrong direction despite the seemingly encouraging results.

Under Malthouse. The Flash has gone, the brilliance is very rarely shown. But now it seems like we are under-achieving, that percolating under the surface there is emerging a new found strength, that hasnt shown itself with results yet- but there are green shoots everywhere...individual players who are thriving under Mick. We just havent put it all together yet. But we are moving in the right direction.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 am
Posts: 22357
Blue Vain wrote:
dane wrote:
I am confused about this Thomas thing.
How do you save the big bucks when there is an amount you must pay each year?
Are we paying the full salary cap?
How much cash could we really save?
Would we have to be paying others overs?
How much would you pay Thomas in an ideal world?


Front load contracts. Give Gibbs, Murphy etc more money this year and next which gives us flexibility to target young out of contract players in the next couple of years. e.g. GWS kids who want to return home. The TPP can be easily achieved with a bit of lateral thinking.

In an ideal world, I wouldn't get Thomas. You can't pay overs for a player who's physical capacity is extremely suspect. Especially when we are so far from a flag. When we are challenging, he'll be sitting in retirement counting his money. We need a plan and a direction. Do you see one Dane?
Are we challenging? Are we rebuilding with an apparent plan of bringing talented youth into the club or are we floating along with the appearance of little purpose?

I know which one looks more likely to me. The supporters and members will be far more likely to come along for the ride if they can see a definite plan and direction. I think that's part of the problem. We come out with blueprints and plans but we tend to deviate or fail to deliver.
It's the same in the football department.


We are definitely doing a rebuild, but we don't need a St Kilda style rebuild.

You honestly believe that MLG doesn't have a plan?

You honestly believe that Mick doesn't have a plan?

Can you quantify what Thomas brings to the Club?

Is the same administration that came out with the blueprints and plans still in office?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Rexy wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
The arguement that Mick is a failed coach because he hasn't produced a premiership in 30 games ignores the fact that the regime before him left us with no development and a bad list. Kernahan might have said MM can win a premiership within his first contract. Where did MM say that? I remember him saying there were no limits. The MM hasn't won us a premiership line, is such a flimsy, shallow arguement against his coaching ability and the development of the players he has ie Gibbs attack on the ball, Rowe, White, Buckley, Menzel, Johnson, Wood, Everett. Casboult, Walker(last year). Afterall are Roos or Hinkley bad coaches because they have not won a premiership? I don't think MM can win won within 5 years with the players at his disposal plus the development required of new players but I am sure he will leave us in a position to challenge for top 4.

Mick was telling everyone we were at 11oclock

He started getting cranky when shown up as crap



actually while he did say that .. i think u missed the point

in fact mick was more controlled with euphoria about our list than everybody else at the club

HOMES is watching da Bachelor........

The point is, a guy with questionable judgement and questionable PR skills is on $1m a year.

$1m a year on a ho hum coach ???


What exactly is ho hum about Mick?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:52 pm
Posts: 2044
Rexy wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
The arguement that Mick is a failed coach because he hasn't produced a premiership in 30 games ignores the fact that the regime before him left us with no development and a bad list. Kernahan might have said MM can win a premiership within his first contract. Where did MM say that? I remember him saying there were no limits. The MM hasn't won us a premiership line, is such a flimsy, shallow arguement against his coaching ability and the development of the players he has ie Gibbs attack on the ball, Rowe, White, Buckley, Menzel, Johnson, Wood, Everett. Casboult, Walker(last year). Afterall are Roos or Hinkley bad coaches because they have not won a premiership? I don't think MM can win won within 5 years with the players at his disposal plus the development required of new players but I am sure he will leave us in a position to challenge for top 4.

Mick was telling everyone we were at 11oclock

He started getting cranky when shown up as crap


Big difference. 11 o'clock doesn't mean I will win a premiership and what is he meant to say to the players. "I have just been appointed coach and you are all hopeless and I don't believe you can win". If he said that you would criticize him for a lack of aspiration


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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4thchicken wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
Where did MM say that?


Its not what he has said - it comes down to what he has done.

IF we need to rebuild for 2-3 years, you don't go recruiting thomas at the end of last season.

4 years @ 600k for a player that had pretty much lost 2 years of football due to ankle injuries and with no guarantee of getting back to his best (particularly given that a huge part of thomas' game had always been explosiveness).

Given the 'rebuild' how far are we from contending? On current showing most people would suggest 2016 would be extremely optimistic. By then we'd have sunk 1.8mill for a player that 'might' recapture the form shown in his glory days @ age 29?

Why not save the $$, bank the betts compensation pick and in the 2015/16 offseason pay big bucks for a FA when we are ready to contend? The pool for that FA period could potentially include -> dangerfield, cotchin, griffen, taylor walker, hawkins, birchall, andrew swallow & jack steven (+ others if free agent qualification is dropped to 7 yrs).

So why recruit thomas? - either we are a lot better than we've shown this year, or is a meal ticket for a mate. Take your pick.


Once again the Thomas Crap. Thomas is a genuine midfielder. It cost salary cap. We took the injury risk. It may not have worked but do you include Everett, Wood, Docherty in your post? Last year was the closest we have come to decent recruiting in 10 years and you focus on the negative because of a personal bias against the coach


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:52 pm
Posts: 2044
Rexy wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Rexy wrote:
Michael Jezz wrote:
The arguement that Mick is a failed coach because he hasn't produced a premiership in 30 games ignores the fact that the regime before him left us with no development and a bad list. Kernahan might have said MM can win a premiership within his first contract. Where did MM say that? I remember him saying there were no limits. The MM hasn't won us a premiership line, is such a flimsy, shallow arguement against his coaching ability and the development of the players he has ie Gibbs attack on the ball, Rowe, White, Buckley, Menzel, Johnson, Wood, Everett. Casboult, Walker(last year). Afterall are Roos or Hinkley bad coaches because they have not won a premiership? I don't think MM can win won within 5 years with the players at his disposal plus the development required of new players but I am sure he will leave us in a position to challenge for top 4.

Mick was telling everyone we were at 11oclock

He started getting cranky when shown up as crap



actually while he did say that .. i think u missed the point

in fact mick was more controlled with euphoria about our list than everybody else at the club

HOMES is watching da Bachelor........

The point is, a guy with questionable judgement and questionable PR skills is on $1m a year.

$1m a year on a ho hum coach ???


Questionable Judgement. IF good judgement means you have to get it right 100% of the time then you will never find a coach with good judgement. Malthouse has made lots of good judgement calls: Everett, Docherty, Wood to name a few.

You can pick a coach based on PR skills but to me it is another red herring. Largely irrelevant. I don't want a lovely bloke coaching my club. I want a football coach with passion that can create an us against them culture and a will to win. PR = Winning within the rules.


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