I don't know who this poster (Wow_Jones) is or if he's still around but it now looks like he got it right over two years ago - the major problem with our on-field performances - Pagan. Even now, such has been the brainwashing over that time, there are only a few people starting to question Pagan. It's a long read but it is the off-season and not much is happening.

For the full thread go to:
http://www.theblueview.org/phpboard/viewtopic.php?t=4432&start=0

Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:43
After yesterday's performance I have come to the conclusion that Denis Pagan is not the coach I thought him to be. I understand his concept of Pagan's paddock, but at the end of the day surely you have to have more than one string to your bow if you are to be successful at the elite level.

I was absolutely mortified when I witnessed the quarter time score and thought that Pagan would review the methods he used to play out the remainder of the game. But, in his infinite wisdom he persisted and the result was a forgone conclusion by half way through the second quarter.

I have read numerous posts on this forum over the past month or so to get an understanding of what people's thoughts are regarding this matter. But no one really questions the duty that Pagan has to his players and supporters. Surely if you do not have the likes of Wayne Carey, Glenn Archer etc this game plan is virtually useless. I would much prefer that we go down by 100 points every game after we have explored different avenues to discover our players strengths and weaknesses. Using this game plan disarms our players from playing to their full potential and in so doing all our supporters are baying for their blood and de-listing. Not good enough people!!! Look to where the problem lies before blaming the players - these guys did not reach this level without showing some sort of promise. I believe Pagan is the issue...

I do not believe our list is as woeful as everyone makes out - it's bascially Pagan's inability to change his way of thinking. It's Pagan's way or the highway as I have read in various newspapers and this forum. Hmmm, pretty narrow minded if you ask me. What if we can't pick up a Wayne Carey type over the next few years - do we still persist with the Pagan's way or the highway or are we then a further 3 years away from glory.

I believe the coach has a responsibility to not only the players, but the supporters and the AFL itself to ensure he at least makes each an every game a competitive one to the best of his abilities. From where I stand he is nothing but a myopic self indulgent ogre who can do nothing but berate players who can't or won't execute is single minded "Plan". I know when someone treats me with contempt, I will not give them my 100% - are the players any different?


Mon Jul 28, 2003 13:35
The issue is does - Pagan have another string to his bow, another trick in the toolbox or is it all one way traffic? How can anyone say they can honestly judge our list when none of our players are contested-mark types? Surely you play to your strengths not highlight your weaknesses for all to see.

Something that I believe that everyone seems to be missing is the fact that Sydney, based on all the experts at the beginning of the year, were to finish last or there abouts come the end of the season. They had the "worst list" supposedly. Where are they now - that's right people, 2nd on the ladder - and why - because their coach coaches not berates and intimidates.

Real coaches coach - Dictators intimidate...


Mon Jul 28, 2003 22:15
The coach as far as I'm concerned should be like an artist, working with the tools at hand and getting the most out of them. I don't see that at all. All I see is a person who has no idea of what to do other than come up with excuses as to why the players aren't performing. I distinctly remember him saying at the beginning of the year how good the boys looked and we could look forward to a much better showing this year based on having all the stars back and the injection of youthful exuberance. Hmmm, for the life of me I'm yet to see that delivered. And let me tell you people, it won't be under this man's tutelage.

If all he has to offer is what he has dished up this year - god help us...
A real coach manages to extract the utmost out of the "cattle" he has at his disposal. If you believe Pagan has done that, then you're kidding yourself.


Mon Jul 28, 2003 22:26
The fact remains we have gone backwards under Denis Pagan - am I right or wrong?

Oh, and for what it's worth I think Paul Roos would have done a far superior job. Just take Sydney's performance and read the following link to get an understanding of what can be achieved with a bit of lateral thinking:

An exerpt:

Sources at Sydney say the Swans' players have responded en masse to a supposed greater sense of faith invested in them by their coach. It presents an interesting contrast to the current status quo at Carlton, whose senior players have reportedly responded less than favourably to the hard line of Denis Pagan, and who were put through the wringer of humiliation again yesterday by a bitter foe, the Blues' most embarrassing afternoon since . . . well, the last one.


Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:32
Why does everyone insist on changing the subject from the core dicussion? The discussion is Denis Pagan and his methodologies - be they right or wrong. So many people are so defensive of this man and I keep asking myself why? Isn't anyone allowed to critise/question his methods? Is he immune from scrutiny?

My concern is we will be 3 years down the track with nothing to show for it based on some fabricated evidence that this guy can actually coach. I think my 6 year old could've coached North to a flag with the side he had, and this is what all you people and most of the media are hanging your hat on?

Gee, I hope I'm wrong, but at this stage it looks to me as through we are on a road to nowhere................and fast...


Tue Jul 29, 2003 14:07
I think that his methodologies employed to get the best out of his players leaves alot to be desired.

The rumours that he castigated Campo in front of all the other players after a loss is inexecusable and unprofessional to say the least. Campo, nor anyone else for that matter, does not deserve that type of treatment. Put yourself in the shoes of all the other players who witnessed that cowardly attack and then consider how you would react to that type of treatment. Would you have respect for the man - or would it be a case where you would just play to the required minimum and without passion.

A successful manager of people does not resort to these type of tactics. He deals with each individual and plays to their strengths and highlights their short comings in a professional one on one manner. He does not play on their fears and should not use threats lightly.


Tue Jul 29, 2003 23:07
Carlton God - Thanks for the heads up....This is exactly my concern, whatever Pagan preaches all and sundry listen and agree. It's as if he has no equal and all listen intently for each word that is spoken without disecting it and seeing it for what it really is - codswollop!

Why do you think he says nothing at press conferences? It's because he has bluffed his way to this point in time. Now the pressures starting to really come on, where can he turn - no Wayne Carey, Glen Archer and co to pull him out of the mire now.

If Big Jack thought he scored big time with Pagan he was wrong. Jack's biggest dump on the club is yet to be realised. Pagan the charlatan will rear his ugly head as one of the most costly errors of Big Jack's reign. God help us and God save the Carlton Football Club!


Tue Jul 29, 2003 23:24
One thing no one predicted was the coaches performance and he has single handedly dismantled what self respect was left in the place. I am sure most of the players are shaking their heads or will be come the end of the season and ask themselves - what happened?

I have been brewing on this for about a month now, and finally the penny dropped. The side isn't as bad as alot of people make out - it's just the coaching has been so rank that it makes it seem that way. Pagan - the master of the fob off - it's everyone else's fault, can't be my coaching methods now can it!!!! I said can it!!!! Everyone agrees I'm a master - I have been in the finals for 10 years blah, blah, blah....Tell someone who cares...What has he done this year? Jack shit...


Wed Jul 30, 2003 01:14


Synbad - It's like you to "bluff" your way around this forum...Whole lotta hype with no content!!!

And as for the troll comment, that's what I expect from someone like you with nothing to contribute other than stand by the sideline yelling obscenities... Synbad, remember it's not what you say it's how you say it - Your problem is you don't do either...I suspect a botched frontal lobotomy is the issue here! Hmmm, am I right?

Grow up and think for yourself. I encourage you to comment constructively instead of regurgitating info you read or heard somewhere. Otherwise shut up!!!

This thread was going along quite happily with people having different views and opinions. Synbad, this is what is referred to as an intelligent discussion with views and opinions expressed freely without flower interupting. Then YOU had to stick your 2 cents worth in didn't you - and what a piss weak effort it was - your mother would be ashamed as to how inconsiderate you have been...Now go back to your hovel and I won't want to have to tell you again!!


Wed Jul 30, 2003 14:37


I think you have not read the thread as to what has been said during the course of the past few days. It is simple to try and summarise an entire arguement as you have attempted with your last post and if you are happy with that then fine. I am more inclined to discuss a subject over a period until all participants have expressed their opinion fully - no conclusion needs to be agreed on by both parties. Obviously, this thread has worn thin with you and Synbad so you jump in from left field with some pointless drivel and think you've gotten to the crux of the matter within 2 paragraphs....Hmmm, both genius', good to have two of you on the one list.

I have endeavoured to field all responses with a valid arguement or agreed not only with individuals that support my theory, but also to the contrary. If this is not what this forum is for then please tell me and I'll try another outlet to help me vent my frustration...If this forum is simply a front for the pro-Pagan band wagon and people like Synbad who believe they are the forum then I think this is definitely the wrong place for me!!


Wed Jul 30, 2003 15:54
Remember Pagan was very excited by what he saw at the beginning of the season and how the troops had performed on the track. Then he got a right royal flogging in Darwin. Ever since then he has professed that the team was not what up to scratch, and the look on the man's face gave it away - he was lost. As he continues to be to this day. He has fast tracked the development of the youth to buy himself some time and blame it on rebuilding - remember Parkin never had this luxury - he was expected to deliver results with the list that was made available to him and to his credit did a wonderful job that we still bask in his glory today.

Getting back to how excited Pagan was about the list and what everyone is telling me on this forum about his great judgement and character building expertise - where is that today? The best he can come up with is "You know where our list is at" at the press conference last weekend. Pretty lame in my book - you told us that we had something to look forward to this season based on your 4-5 month pre-season campaign and working very closely with a - from memory - "Very committed bunch of guys"....

Where was this insightful coach I was lead to believe was coming to return us to the glory days?

bb, the problem that Denis has is he was trying to introduce the North model to Carlton.. the shinboner spirit when we had no shinboners.. we had a totally different culture.
Denis had the opportunity to concentrate JUST on first eradicating the 'Fatcat' culture and developing kids.
Unfortunately when shit came to shove he chose to worry about his record and not about the fundamentals...(culture change with a razor)..
The senior blokes around the club couldnt accept the blue collar stuff he asks of them in a very blue collar way.. so what does he do??
Does he trade Lance and bring in a kid ?
Does he make an example of Campo?
No he keeps Lance (Trust me.. not a marriage made in heaven)
And allows Campo to shit in the face of the club thats given him so much because we concentrated on retining these guys.
We had a whole year to 'tap up' a player from another club and were unable.. to me thats because there are signs the club is drowning in its own shit...
Paralysed to really bottom out it will do everything but the token stuff take the necesary steps forwards.

Tjhere was an opportunity to have faith in the members.. to talk about youth, early picks and a return to a proud footy club...
Instead it was squandered by the footy dept and the board in their pathetic attempt to save their own arses from becoming a symbol of failure (I dont know why they dont get it but we are a failure currently anyway)....
They could have sold us and the sponsors a blueprint into the future,.,.Anyone have any idea on where were meant to be in THREE years let alone FIVE??...Nup...!!! steady as she goes approach...

Were cutting edge at nothing.... we no longer lead the AFL in anything.. were merely making up the numbers.
If these guys are too scared to sell us a plan into the future/ or unable to.. why do you think they can sell the club to anyone uncontracted???

The broom needs to go through the place.

There are a couple of people who will put up their hands to help turn things around.
One is an advertising whizz.. The other is a young guy who is succesful at what he does.. loves the club and is just as capable of staning in the outter with a pie in hand as he is on a board.. and in my opinion is a very good candidate for president up the track....

Collo is more of a troubleshooter than a visionary...
Smorgon has no people skills..

Quite abit of the board are now tired and out of their depth..

Sticks should not have anything to do with the footy dept....

Its time!!!!

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

One of the continuing themes of Pagan's press conferences was the constant references to how bad our list is and how severe the penalties were on the club three years ago. This became a real source of frustration for me, and must have made our players feel worse about themselves than they needed to be. Confidence is a fragile thing, and if a person is told often enough that they're no good, then no matter how determined and talented they are, they'll end up as duds.

As a supporter who was extremely grateful for the arrival of Denis to our club, I haven't given up hope, but I sure want to see and hear a more positive message coming from the coach in 2006.

Wow_jones is either my half brother or massive from CSC - and most of what he said is correct.

Synbad I have read all 3559 of your posts and that last one was the best I have ever read . Well done buddy.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I didn't know Tyrants had put his hand up yet?

Damn it, I think he'd be a good Prez too.

Another thing i have a huge issue with is why we never hear Grant Williams in any interviews.
What other footy club does not have a footy dept boss that doesnt talk to the media.
Whilst i think Grant is a top guy... i dont think the CEO should be conducting all the interviews....

The good thing is i believe Grant will get a helping hand.. as he is not a footy person...

Hes an administraor..

Which means that were relying more on Denis and his coaches(who needed to be given the flick for Denis sake)...and Sticks Kernahan.. who keeps blundering along like a Keystone Cop...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synners just wondering why you have changed your tune about the board and Pagan over the last couple of months. Just a short time ago you were attacking anyone who questioned the board or Dennis, now you are calling for heads. Interesting backflip.

Sitdown with someone we both know did we?

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

I've been posting that very sentiment over at CSC for months...they didn't understand what I was trying to say. It's good to read a post in agreeance.

I also think Pagan was too stubborn and held onto the fantasy of creating a champion team with a bunch of 'so so's' for too long...I think it stunted our progress somewhat.

_________________
The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

I can't go through all this again..................

BM because as we all know the boards and the coaches hands were being tied by "those Elliot contracts"..
I didnt say id get rid of Denis..... Denis has a 3 year contract and unless we pay him out i cant see (unlike you) how we can turf him out even if we had to..
The assistants should have been given the flick.. (By the board)
If Denis is not the man to help us go forward the board should stand down for ratifying a three year contract.
Ultimately thge blame rests with the board..

Just as it did with signing Fev.. telling everyone we signed him and is our "face" and then trying to trade him when we ran him down for 2 months...

thats clearly a board who knows not what to do and cant continue to use Elliot as an excuse..

I was behind the board because i believe in some of the things they were doing.

Im not a donkey voter BM...

They needed to give Campo the biggest slap in the face if they had any balls instead of sucking up their arses to retain them ...
Now all thats happened is Campo goes out and blames the club and the board for leaving publicly along with a bunch of other pigs that are more interested in keeping their snouts in the troft than in the club.

Fancy these guys thinking they should be compensated to play footy for Carlton??

Fancy this footy dept and board being too desperate to turf them out on their ear.. instead of investing this much effort in retaining them instead of turfing them out and being aggresive to supplement their loss with other players...

Time has come....

PS not everything the board does is wrong.. but the current self preservation and timid approach to running the club by beancounters doesnt sit well with me....

You havent told me how much of a leader Campo is and how courageous he is.....(Again)

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

so if we turn around this year
does that make it unright?

right can be unright, right?

Just like being wrong can later be right
and being right, wrong, right?

I mean we are not dealing with facts here are we, but with what people believe, some people are holding to their beliefs, some are changing to a new belief and everyone is right or wrong historically.

I mean pagan was hailed when we won 10 with the rejects so he was not right then was he, but now he may be, or not, depending on what you believe.

Me i still believe we need to see what happens this year.
Time will tell whether i am right

or not

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

PS i dont know Humphrey Bear.. you do....

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Winning ten meaningless games with a bunch of hacks and ultimately cost ourselves a class kid like Griffen Deledio Franklin Roughead will set us way back.
Going after a guy like Dylan McLaren.. another spare parts ruckman to add to Prenda, Aisake, Setanta,Batson,Brya, Deluca and the failures of Hedge Mott etc...
When we believed ruckmen take too long to mature and had an opportunity and bring in a kid like Cam Wood last year (because he might take too long).. and while were still not going to have a class ruckman way after Wood becomes one.. is going to kill us.

It wraps up the bandaid reject approach we have been kidding ourselves with.. and will cost us!!!

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Major backflip there Synners, and I do not in essence disagree with you. I do feel though that the board has made a stand on Campo and are prepared to let him go and it would appear that Campo has made his mind up to leave. Personally i would have liked to see him stay, but at the 'right price', note I have always thought our players have been overpaid, but he isn't, so good luck to him and we move on.

Lance ended signing for pretty much what he was orginally offered and his meeting with Collo was more about clearing the air over some personal differences. So in the end it was a win for us. We got a good player at the 'right' price.

Half the probelm with the board this I believe has revolved around Collo's health issues, personally I thought he should have stood aside while he was recuperating and the person who was anointed to fill in, did not live up to expetations. Also the current board was only meant as an interim board with the expectation that Fitzpatrick would take over about now. Unfortunatly Mike had other ideas and chose to go on the comission instead. My understanding is that the board has been looking for talent to come onto the board but the search has not as successful as some would have liked. While 'talent' has been identified it is a different story to convince them spend the very large amount time and energy needed to be a board member, particularly when it is a gratis position.

Like you I am dissappointed that there issues still afflicting the club at the moment, particulatly around indivivual egos but I also hopeful that these issues will be sorted out in the medium term to the benefit of the club.

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Seeing as we're bringing out the same old questions, let's trot out the same old answers.

This is a glimps of what Dennis 'inherited' at the end of 2002. I've asked myself;
"Who were our quality players that would take us to the top again and beyond 2005?"

Given that we were un-able to pick ANY quality players, and incredibly stupid contracts meant no one would touch any good players without subsidies, not to mention the fact that the penalties meant we COULD NOT trade into the first 2 rounds for two years anyway...............

what was Dennis to do?

What would a funky young dude with tanned skin and white teeth be able to do with a list like this, Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

L. Whitnall - Worth keeping
A. Koutoufides - Costly champion
C Bradley - Aged 102
J Plunkett - Hack
M Allan - Selfish Hack
S Beaumont - Selfish Hack
S Camporeale - Selfish prick
R Houlihan - Jury - OUT
A McKay - Aged 97
J Murphy - hot/Cold
S Fletcher - FLFLFLFL
B Ratten - Retired gracefully
A Merrington - Who
D Gallagher - As above
C McKernan - What were we thinking
A Hickmott - Broken body
M Lappin - Hope to retain
G Manton - Good servant, now crazy
S Cranage - Who
B Fevola - Great footballer but has issues
I Prendergast - Only here because there's no one else
A Franchina - Not upto it
M Mansfield - Grrrrrr
T Hotton - Hack
A Eccles - Hack
A Christou - Retired gracefully
J Doering - Hack
L Livingston - Hack that's still playing
T Sporn - Hack that's still playing
B Thornton - Give him time
S Wiggins - Hack that's still playing
B Campbell - Who
J Davies - Last legs

The board has made no stand with Campo except to not pay him his asking 400k...
He will go to Essendon* on around the same money as we would have paid him./. but he gets to stick it up the timid club we support.
The board has made mistake after mistake and has NO backbone.. and part of that comes from the Kernahan involvement and part of it comes from a lack of nouse...

there will be new people on the board..
Alot of them on this board are WAY out of their depth.....

Lance didnt sign on what he was originally offered...

We went up 3 times from our original 300k offer...."The take it or lrave it offer"

I dont know w\how you can keeping harping on that.... Collo called Landce a fat bludger..!!! as did Lappin more or less...
Lance even told us he wanted to go...

We begged him to stay and feathered his nest.... of course Lance was going to stay .. Demons supporters/people would want him to prove himself..

And as for Collo looking for talent.. whats he handpicking???
Does he want to anoint the board members himself???

Sounds abit like Jack to me....

We must be vigilant....


Anyway people have pout up their hands and we dont have to wait on the NAB guy.. PS.. Do you know what his philosophies on the Carlton Footbal;l Club are???

Grollo????He has told us time and time again he isnt interested...

So whats the point in these names excpet if youre trying to show yopure doing something???

I dont want him handpicking board members....

Do you???

See you dont even understand the gravity of what youre saying do you???

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

You know it is pointless trying to have a sensible dicussion with somebody, who thinks that yelling, being abusive and generally ranting at all and sundry is the way to 'win' an arguement.


Seems some did not graduate from the playground.

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

But BM.. youre saying Collo is trying to finmd us board members..

Thats not his job... his job is to steer the ship away from the reefs we keep slamming ourselves into.

A discussion???

I think again im making all the play with the issues the club faces and youre stating the obvious..

How can you say.. "Collo is trying to bring people into the fold"???

thats Elliot with Delutis....

What you should be explaining is how if you think Denis is wrong for us.. how did we sign him up?
Why did we sign his assistants up?
Why are we paying less than any other club to our recruiting dept.. when we surely need it more than anyone else...??
Why is Fev signed up and then put up for trade???
Why is Grant Williams our Football manger and he doesnt have any Footy experience...???

Why are we struggling with sponsors?
What is our plan??
How are we selling our future to the memebers and supporters???

Thats what Collo is meant to be overseeing...not handpicking board members.. hes already done that with Carlton 1.. its time the club begins shaping itself without the beancounter influence its now inundated with.

You cant go forward if you have a shit list.. not now.. not in twenty years...
This we dont need picks because we need to win 7 or 8 games(as long as its win lose win lose.. lose lose.. win ..lose..win..lose lose... and not 12 losses straight)
Theyre yesterdays people...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

These issues have been raised and debated by many other posters Synbad, over many months and in this regard you are a bit of a Johhny come lately and quite frankly boring.

_________________
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06