I saw footage of Armstrong walking on the moon and plenty of people attest to the fact.

Thing is Campo was content to walk on the moon but Pagan required that all players ran on the moon to get us out of the dark side quicker. Campo thought that as a seasoned astronaut, he didn't need a new program director changing the mission plan on him.

The insufferable work situation is a valid argument if we know the details. Is Pagan rude to the players? Is he unapproachable? Is he intimidating? It doesn't make sense to me. Pagan's job is to get the players playing to a plan, the players job is to adapt to whatever that plan is.

In my job, I like certain tasks more than others but on occasion I have needed to do the lesser liked tasks because it suits my employer's planning. I have a grumble but I adjust. It seems to me that our players are not adaptable. They like it the way they like it and as long as they have each other to complain to, change comes slowly. Campo is now gone like Murphy, Allan, Manton, Beaumont and maybe even Ratten before him. What other players allegedly detest Pagan? We need to work on them too.

We bag each other for being all nostalgic and thinking we just needed to show up to be successful in the modern era but it appears some of our players are living in the greener pastures of the past too. I'd prefer a more practical bunch, who know where we are and who want to put in the hard yards to be part of something better.

Campo is just peeved he can't feed off a team that is guaranteed success any longer. He knows he won't be around to see success again and is not prepared to be part of the rebuilding for rewards he will not see personally. It's a pity, but Campo's departure does contribute to the rebuilding. Cue Simmo to progress further safe in the knowledge that his spot is safe and he will be a permanent midfield fixture. Likewise Bentick.

I hope Campo doesn't hurt us onfield but regardless, he has probably two years left so the damage will be minimal.

Explain the following anomalies:

1) 2004 season
2) 2005 Wizard Cup
3) Players leaving are senior players and not juniors

Surely Pagan was involved in all those as well.

The problem goes deeper I suspect than just pointing the finger at the coach or the players. There is something intangible and that's lack of belief from anyone in the club, lack of foresight, lack of boldness and adventurous behaviour that might actually create a spark somewhere.

Off the field, the same thing happens. On the field, we have Koutoufides, as the last of the old guard as captain. Something has to change and it cannot just be the coach, because the problem goes further than that.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

You get the feeling that if he thought about it for a bit, and realised that his leaving will actually help us rebuild, he'll want to stay, just out of spite?

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

You're right Clem, something has to change.
I'd be interested to hear what people views are of the coaches responsibilities.
IMHO, once players get to AFL level, the coaches role is more one of management.
He can implement defensive or offensive mindsets in individuals and increase their knowledge of the game but most players have largely established their skills etc prior to getting drafted.

IMO, a good coach knows how to extract the maximum from an individual and the team collectively.
He understands who can be blasted, who responds negatively to a spray, who needs their tyres pumped up and when.
He knows what game style can realistically be played by the players at his disposal and how to sell it to them.

When I go to training in a month the players will warm up and then do a drill Pagan calls "smash ball".
They pair up and roll the ball along the ground and run in to pick it up.
After 5 minutes one player will then handball to his partner who kicks it back hard to him.
After 5 minutes they get into 6 groups and do the same diagonally.
Then they'll stretch again and do a 6 group 3/4 ground drill where they change direction and kick into the path of a running player etc etc etc.

Repetition is fine when you are reinforcing a winning culture.
The problem is Clem that we go out and lose too often.
On Monday the players come to training and they want to have faith again.
They want Pagan to say "We're playing blah blah this week and I have a plan to beat them"
They want some tactical direction and to believe that the coach has the answers.
You know what they do Clem? They warm up. They do 15 minutes of @#$%&! smash ball. They do exactly what they did last week which achieved a loss.
The players actually want to win far more than any of us. Even Campo.
They just want answers.
They want to believe that Pagan has the answers or a variation or a plan for specific opposition, anything.

You're right about 2004.
We'd get smashed and Pagan would take them to the pub.
Or we'd get smashed and he'd get Bradley to take training.
Or we'd have a lighthearted night with fun goalkicking drills or he'd flog the absolute crap out of them.
And we'd come out and win the next week.
You know why? Because its different.
The players want to believe that something new can change their fortunes because what they did last week achieved nothing.

Same as the Wizard Cup.
The players have finished pre season and they're jumping out of their skins.
They're ready to eat a footy.
Their belief and confidence have been rebuilt and with success comes more belief.
Come round one and Laidley places 2 loose men in our forward line and suddenly the space we enjoyed during the WC is gone.
Pagan continues to play an 8 man backline but so do the opposition.
After several weeks confidence is eroding.
They look to the coach for answers.
Whats the plan? How do we combat the opposition?
More of the same boys and smash ball.

BTW, dont be fooled into thinking its only the senior players who are disenchanted.
Our kids were holding out their hands for top dollar recently as well.

You're right. Something needs to change.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

PF's with average lists, probably a bad last qtr in 1997 cost them a premiership. Regular finalists, need I say anymore. I think he worked with them very well.

Sedat, the floor is yours.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

2004 was a "new" team. You tell me what happened in the intervening period between the Wizard Cup, where we were full of committment, hardness and run, and August where we were looked disinterested and lacked and passion or direction whatsoever. After 2004, and our oustanding form in the Wizzer we should have been pushing finals. Wizzer finalists invarably finish top 5 so crap teams don't win it normally. The bookies thought so, they had us at $14 for the flag. The Carlton Wizzer team would have beaten the Carlton team of June and July by 12 goals or more. Why? Now you tell me what happened in the period between April and August.

So according to Camporeale he's not leaving because of contract issues, he's leaving because he doesn't want to tough it out during lean times?
Where are the guy's balls?

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Could you stop giving the $14 for the flag argument?

Carlton has a large supporter base, therefore more money goes into the betting market for Carlton compared to other clubs, so our price can sometimes seem artificially low. The same thing happens to Essendon* before the start of each season, they have been flag favourites some years with little justification except lots of Essendon* supporters putting money on their team.

Odds follow the market and if lots of money goes on a team the bookies have to cover their butts by lowering the odds. It does not mean the market is always rational, $14 were ridiculous odds even after the Wizza cup win.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

BV,

Its interesting regarding the loose men in defence. John Worsfold never allows someone to play loose in the eagles forward 50. If they put 9 players down there, he'll out 9 of his players down there.

Why is DP reluctant to do this? Is it due to our lack of contested marking options who could take a grab in that situation, or something else? It was obvious from early on in the round 1 match that something needed to be done about Colbert etc playing without opponents

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Our team was not finals material in 2005. We were flattered by our results in the Whizzer.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

All Pagan teams need Heart. This current Carlton Team doesn't. So Pagan goes looking for Heart, and on the way casualties appear..

Losing , certain palyers along the way allows Pagan to fill spots in the quest to build a Carlton Team with Heart.

The test is not whether he can do it. The true test is how long will it take.

Sorry Campo ... You do not fit the mould of a player who can be a part of this Heart...

Thank you Good Bye, good luck and wave on the way down. If you really really wanted success again , you'd not be headed to Essendon*. We'll win another flag before them. So if you had half a brain you should've stayed and screwed us. What better way to get even with the Club. Take the money and under perform. Sound like a plan to me.

Thanks for giving up your spot on the Carlton List as we look at building.

Anyway....

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

Ok, that might be true but how do you explain such a drop off though? 10 wins in 2004, Wizard Cup win this season, many Carlton supporters were (quite justifiably) at least expecting a push at the finals, if not a spot in the lower few spots in the 8.

I still wonder how we can go from such a high to such a dramatic low and there has to be more to it than a perceived lack of talent. Something just isn't/wasn't right and I think it has to do with more than ability of the players.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Its about confidence Mick.
Pagan wont play a man on man backline because he doesnt have faith in the players.
We continually played Barnaby or others as a loose man in defence to assist the backline.
Laidley was happy to back in his loose men against ours.
After that, so was everyone else.

Listen to DEnis after a loss.
"Our players are under no illusions about where we're at"
"They're trying their hardest"
Collo tells us our list is full of Z graders.
He believes that we arent good enough.
How can we then expect the players to have faith in their ability to win when then coach and board dont?

As for our players having no heart Tractor boy, how much heart has Leon Davis got compared to Andrew Carrazzo.
Or Nick Davis compared to Adam Bentick.
Does Peter Burgoyne have more heart than Bret Thornton?
Our players have more heart than those 3 who played in the past 3 grand finals.
You can accuse our players of lacking skill but we've got our share of heart.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Culture, leadership and direction, Blues2006.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Where should that come from PJ?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

The club.

Everyone who has their hand on deck in getting this club back up the ladder has an equal share of the blame.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

If you do an honest appraisal of our list compared to the other clubs, where would you place us on the overall team talent ladder?
I'd place us in the bottom 3-4 which would make our 2004 result the anomoly, not our 2005 result.

As for the Whizzer, the team played very well, but in all honesty I think it was largely because we were allowed to play how we wanted. Come the regular season Fev and Lance were given little of the space they enjoyed in the pre-season comp. Chuck in the loss of Thornton and Livo to throw out the structure of the back half and we came crashing back to earth.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

rofl I like your quote Wojee.

We are one of the bottom 4 teams playing and so is our list.

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Can smell the gf its there for the taking we are the form side

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we're a good side. We don't have a great list, I know that. But there's still something wrong I reckon. You could not honestly have thought after last season and the Wizard Cup Wojee that we would be this bad? After the Wizard Cup not only Carlton supporters were thinking that we could push for finals. We were obviously never going to be premiers but there would have been little surprise among the larger football community if we at least challenged foe the 8. Few people could see us completely unravelling like what happened and that is the baffling thing, why did this occur?

Don't sell the Wizard Cup short. Some teams might not have treated it as seriously but you must remember we beat as good a West Coast side in terms of who was playing as the one which played most of the season and made a grand final. We beat them fair and square too, we weren't lucky, we genuinely deserved to beat the them. This is just completely irreconcilable with the way our season panned out and I refuse to believe that the Wizard Cup was simply an anomaly which can be so easily dismissed.

You might point to a few tactical decisions by North in round one that may have played a part but I believe that the problem runs somewhat deeper than that. I agree that losing Thornton, French and Livo for long periods hurt our structure but we played without any sort of passion for a good portion of the season. We didn't play with hunger and out attitude at times just wasn't right. And as I've always said our problems ran beyond the talent out on the park, because you dont't need the most talent in the world to show passion, hunger etc.

In my opinion, there was no reason whatsoever we should have crashed back to earth as hard as we did.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.