I'm not sure those capitals are appropriate Cretylus or add anything to your debate.

Look I'm sorry, but as I see it you are changing your words and your argument.

From where many of us sit this club has consistently lied to us about the state of our list and where we are placed in terms of a premiership. Ratts telling us we were top 4 in 2012 and Mick telling us this year we are 11 o'clock on the premiership clock are two examples. The President telling us two premierships were possible by 2015 is another.

My original point was the club lies to us... I wasn't explicit in saying it was to that matter, but it's what I meant. I personally rarely see the formidable modern clubs such as Geelong and Hawthorn make that error. Even strugglers such as St Kilda now seem committed to telling us where their list is at.

As far as the club always treating us like this, you are probably right. But I'd argue it is something they need to change for the reasons you ironically point out - ie keeping with the times.

Just on your Henderson example: aren't we upset about our introversion? Our lack of voice? At least Henderson is trying to get in the dude's head. Walk the walk and all that, sure, but at least he's talking.

They don't lie to us about 'where are at' - they actually believe it to be true at the time. They are analytically inept. They make judgements about where we will be based on relying on luck - just like fans do. "If we get a full season out of Waite, Carrazzo and Jamison" - well if Santa is actually real.....

They bet we can get 4 good seasons out of a guy who hasn't played for two years. They delude themselves about their own capacity to turn this around. They are not unusual in that regard - many individuals do. That's why the structures Synbad talks about are so important. I've seen this in my own company and a terrifically functioning Board is working really well with Management to develop an exciting future for us. All ideas are welcome but they follow months of strategic work. Who are our competitors? Both now and what will they be like in the future? What are our advantages like against theirs? What do we stand for? What really is our brand? What's our product and who is going to buy it? This is a subscription business - footy - which means people need to KEEP buying it. What's our value proposition to the fans?

At my company we (Board + Management) ask ourselves "how do we know?" "What if we are wrong?" It's all very robust. And it's incredibly effective. I've seen no evidence of it at Carlton for years. Decades even.

Lack of clear analytical thinking. Lack of strategy. Lack of standing for anything.

And we put plodders in charge. You have to understand - to GET advantages you need a leader who can inspire. Be a thought leader. You need someone strong so as to get big deals done in your favour.

You can love or loathe Eddie. But he IS those things. And their club has thrived as a result. All power to them. Rather than loathe them, learn from them.

Then work out how to go ahead of them.

They don't lie to us about 'where are at' - they actually believe it to be true at the time. They are analytically inept. They make judgements about where we will be based on relying on luck - just like fans do. "If we get a full season out of Waite, Carrazzo and Jamison" - well if Santa is actually real.....

They bet we can get 4 good seasons out of a guy who hasn't played for two years. They delude themselves about their own capacity to turn this around. They are not unusual in that regard - many individuals do. That's why the structures Synbad talks about are so important. I've seen this in my own company and a terrifically functioning Board is working really well with Management to develop an exciting future for us. All ideas are welcome but they follow months of strategic work. Who are our competitors? Both now and what will they be like in the future? What are our advantages like against theirs? What do we stand for? What really is our brand? What's our product and who is going to buy it? This is a subscription business - footy - which means people need to KEEP buying it. What's our value proposition to the fans?

At my company we (Board + Management) ask ourselves "how do we know?" "What if we are wrong?" It's all very robust. And it's incredibly effective. I've seen no evidence of it at Carlton for years. Decades even.

Lack of clear analytical thinking. Lack of strategy. Lack of standing for anything.

And we put plodders in charge. You have to understand - to GET advantages you need a leader who can inspire. Be a thought leader. You need someone strong so as to get big deals done in your favour.

You can love or loathe Eddie. But he IS those things. And their club has thrived as a result. All power to them. Rather than loathe them, learn from them.

Then work out how to go ahead of them.

there is scope for an EGM.....

instead of whinging, members can force change...by writing their own ticket and roll the board

although wrtiting a ticket is easy,winning the board is the hard part because carlton members are apathetic in that they always think some big messiah will come and save the club. carlton members also dont vote because i recall sticks only got 300 votes at the last election.

The more realistic option to force change is to withdraw financial contribution.

Money, or more importantly lack of it, talks.

Besides, we're just all too apathetic anyway

Well, no, many people joined up in numbers to throw Elliott out and restore what we thought was a membership based democratic club, only to have that taken away again by 'the families' who regained ultimate control and put the kibosh on any hint of an election based challenge.

So Mosquito Fleets attempt at re-writing history falls a bit short.

The AFL is very protective of clubs these days... club debt is not the issue it once was