You must be speed reading, read my post again. I agree we wasted our opportunity, also thought we were a bit unlucky in 2011 when 15 wins would have made the top four any other year. On top of that we lose Gibbs, Kruuzer and some others on the eve and during finals and just miss out on beating Eagles over there with our weakest team for the year.

It get's back to recruiting, both on and off the field. Grigg, Bower, Hampson, Davies, McCarthy, Mitchell, Lucas, Watson, Bootsma, have I missed any, that's a staggering fail list isn't it?

I just don't think MM is the answer, so answer the question, at what point does MM's position at the club become untenable 0-7, 0-8, 1-12 or is he as safe as houses?

Trade. We were inactive. Trade because we had salary cap issues and because our list didn't gel. Trade because we had players under contract. That is when you trade.
There were number of ways to break up a list that had already proven to everyone except Mick and the fabled list management committee.
I am not talking about Bootsma, AJ or Davies. I am talking about those with currency. Betts, Yaz, Gibbs, Kruezer, Waite , Walker, Hampson, Jamo, and Warnock to name a few. We could easily be in a better position now without 3 or 4 of those names on our list in 2013.

We sat on our hands to watch another season and four games of the same stuff. Now we are talking about doing what the whole world could see needed to be done at the end of 2012.
Instead we lobbed it all on the Lollie Eater and felt comfortable that Old Book Launches would lift us.
Took our eye off the ball. Massive ego's everwhere including the supporter base.

I'm confused, in what order is this all happening and what is the catalyst for it? What does "Worse this time round" mean in the overall context of our s***ness? Malthouse is to blame retroactively, is that what you are saying?

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I'll simplify it for you, MM is not the answer... There, get it?

How do you know some or all of those players weren't discussed, and what was offered was not sufficient? obviously you do have some knowledge - seeing as how definitive you are in your statements. I just gave you an example re: yarran. Would you accept a 2nd rounder for him? Should the club have accepted a 2nd round pick for him?

What do you think anyone would give up for Waite? Or Warnock? 3rd round picks? Have a look at our strike rate with those voer the last few years - I'm sure that would have ended well.

In all seriousness - have you ever been in a professional negotiating environment? Do you understand what you are typing?

MM may not be the answer - I certainly wish we had've gone through a proper process - but at this point MM isn't the question.

Until the house is in order - if it ever is - the decorator is just covering up the cracks.

Fix the damn house first - stumps, roof, wiring, the works!

Fix that and then decide on your decorator, cos a house in order will make the follow on decisions so much easier.

Fix the house, finally, or we'll just be throwing good paint after bad.

And if the house isn't fixed then we'll just continue to ruin the careers of various decorators.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Players were put on the table for trade both in 2012 and 2013, but there were no reasonable bites.
Would you have given up Lucas and Bootsma for 3rd Round picks or list cloggers from other Clubs ?
Aaron Joseph was put up for trade also, but we got tumble weeds.
I also recall the Filth sniffing around Warnock, but only offering a pick in the 40s or 50s for him.
Why give something away and replace it with something similar or worse.... Treating water.... No point!!
Seriously,. this MM hate is blinding some peoples judgments.

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James Hird and Essendon* FC - #FOREVERDRUGCHEATS

Punter, Yes I would have taken a second round pick in oct 2012 for Yaz, Krooz, Walker, Jamo, Warnock or Betts because to me it was so obvious that the core of our list at the end of 2012 had ran its race. We had seen what they had and as a group it they just didn't gel. Player for player trades also. But nothing happened. We didn't show up. Mick was happy with the flaky list.
Now because nothing happened we had to watch the same players individually and as a group make the same mistakes and show the same characteristics for another year and 4 games.

I think I understand what I am typing although I am not the best writer and don't always get across what I mean.

Thank God your not our list manager then....

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James Hird and Essendon* FC - #FOREVERDRUGCHEATS

I keep hearing our hands were tied yet we tried to lure Travis Cloke.

How did we put a substantial offer to Cloke if we had no room to move?
Lots of people are happy to quote those involved when it suits but they're just as happy to disregard those involved when the message doesn't suit their argument.
I've asked this countless time.
How did we put a substantial offer to Travis Cloke if our hands were tied with TPP arrangements?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

& I'll second that !

If we had have taken 2nd rounders for those players the shitstorm would still be swirling now, 18 months later.

You would have traded our most effective forward (betts), our most creative player (Yarran), our best running back (Walker), our best back (Jamo - he was in 2012 anyway) and our two best rucks for 2nd round picks.... OK. Wow... but OK.

I'd suggest that Warnock would never have attracted a 2nd rounder. Every other one of those players was of higher value to Carlton than other clubs, with the possible exception of Kreuzer if he had wanted to go to GWS (and I agree with you that hindsight dictates that would ahve been a good move for us).

But here's the thing. You're blaming the club for not doing something, when every indication is they were open to doing exactly that - except the returns on offer in their minds weren't sufficient to justify the talent drain.

Re: Cloke - two theories here from mine.

Theory 1 - Carlton knew that Cloke would never leave Collingwood, both because he wouldn't want to and also because Eddie's head would literally explode if Cloke followed Malthouse to Carlton. But they were willing participants to play a role in driving Collingwood's financial commitment to him to the highest possible level, with a view that someone else more palatable might be squeezed out down the track (that's how I would have played it anyway).

Theory 2 - They would have had a fire sale of epic - e.g. club29 style - standards and gutted the joint getting him in. then you would have seen stuff like Yarran for a 2nd rounder type deals - the kind of deals you make when everyone knows you have zero leverage.

Can you imagine the lynch mob if we had traded Yaz for peanuts and kept the likes of Davies etc?

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

Not trade all of them but put them all up with the hope of trading 4. Probably my poor writing skills but I think I put the word or in there.

Look at what they are worth to the list. Look at what a list that fails year after year is worth.

Do you guys seriously think those names I mentioned are worth more that 2nd round picks ? Why? Because years ago we got them as early picks?
I am not sure that is a clever way to look at list management.

Dom and Asp. If I was a list manager I would have shaken the list at the end of 2012 and with Mick guiding the recruiters we would be in a better place that we are now.

Before replying please read them posts again and try and understand what I am trying to say.

And you know this didn't happen.... how?

Players were asked if they would take a pay cut if we could lure Cloke, and the overwhelming response was yes.

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James Hird and Essendon* FC - #FOREVERDRUGCHEATS

I don't think you've come to grips with what market value our players actually hold.

..far more often than not, the incoming coach uses his first season to fully assess the list and rework it after début season, it's uncommon for a coach to come in and make list changes beyond the minimum without really knowing what he has to work with.. ..and every coach will tell you that you need to 'live' with them for a bit before you know up close what you can't from afar..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

SFA

That would show no understanding of what we would have been trying to do.
Davies, AJ and the like were contracted and worth nothing on the market. Losing them would not change the lack of backbone in out list 1 bit. Swapping out some quality and getting equal back would at list give our list a chance of succeeding rather than watching the same list do the same thing year after year.

You cant go blaming the list managers and admin if you are not prepared to lose a favourite player or swallow your pride on the odd one.

Think about Yaz. What his role has become. Think about Bradley Hill or Walters. Look at where they are drafted.
Walker similar. Good player. Could replace him easy enough.
Betts was going anyway. Mick said he knew from the moment he met him.
Krooz. If on the market what would we get for him.
Jamo's shoulders go so you can never rely on him. when he is out it was an excuse in 2012.

At the end of 2012 we needed to change our list to give it new characteristic. We didn't.