Jarusa is trying to argue concrete facts - ie Kick out, Livo injured etc.

Jim you're trying to argue the intangilbles. Problem with intangibles is that they are subjective.

You feel commitment, you feel pressure, you feel all the other intangibles fell away BECAUSE of the Pagan/player relationship but it is that part of the argument that we have to take on faith because none of us have proof.

At this pint Jim Pagan has lost you

He has not lost Jarusa nor myself so we really are arguing from positions of 'belief' or 'faith''.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You're the smart boy, you tell me what the difference is? The results, the committment level are laid out in front of you. If that's not obvious well,I'd doubt you're ability to reason properly This is a side that won half it's games last year and were outstanding in it's workrate and committment pre-season. you tell me what's changed....or don't you know, you'd rather bag my thoughts instead. i've stated what's obvious, you've come up with nothng at all to refute it. So come on smart boy, what is the difference between now and then? don't think losing an average FB and a solid CHB are ging to make goals and goals difference in relation to performance. And certainly doesn't explain why their committment level went competely out the window. there's only one reason for that! clever enough to see it?

You could also say that the output from the 'reject's in their second year was far less than in their first. They wanted to show their old coaches that they still had the ability. In their second year, the hunger wore off.

Also, consider Lance's opponents during the Wizard Cup. He played on Paul Wheatley, Andrew Welsh......hardly what you would call key defenders

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

But Effes you say that Lance isn't a key forward don't you? If Lance isn't a key forward why would he play on key defenders?

This is getting tiring. Just admit that Lance had a very good Wizard Cup and a good season! Geez!

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

jim take that chip of your shoulder and settle down - the point is you are taking about the intangibles.

Oh and if you are going to get upset everytime someone disagrees then you will become tireseome. Just settle down, this is twice you've gone all personel on me.

Just pointing out the two different arguments will never touch so its a circular argument.

You think Pagan has lost the players (others agree with you) and I do not. No need to get angry about it. Why/ Because just as you BELIEVE he has I BELIEVE I'll wait until training in a few weeks and see how the boys sound/train etc.

You could tell last summer they were swicthed on (and they were for a time) and I am hoping i see the same things again this summer and hope that as they get older (and as we continue to increase the talent pool (ie picks 1&4 maybe) we shall see the switched on periods increase and the fall aways decrease.

Now chill out jim this is a discussion forum, it means we are trying to discuss.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I think Jim has a point and I will support him. Yes I admit I am a pessimist.Yes The rules in the pre season cup may have altered the form of the team to some degree .Yes we caught a few guys on the hop.Yes we have no concrete evidence that DP is hated by some players and therefore that is not the reason the difference between the Wizard cup and the middle of the year was so vast .

Therefore I would like to here from the Danny boy and all his supporters as to why we were so shit when it truely mattered..I went to the round 21 game between the scum and was appalled by the way the team played.After kicking the first three goals we were an embarrasment a common occurence in recent history.
In fact in 2002 when we won our first wooden spoon we were unlucky that year in more games when the team under Wayne Brittian(remember him) lost close games (Geelong and West Coast to name 2).How much do you guys think it is the fault of the coach and how much blame should be rested on the players shoulders.
I am not saying Brittian should of been retained at the end of 2002,but that it is possible Pagan was the wrong choice.With the team he had at North I reckon anyone could have coached them to a flag.

You guys seem to cast off totally the notion that maybe the coach is not doing his job right.What I seriously want next year is a team that has a crack and doesnt succumb to the performaces witnessed against the tiges and the scum.You can walk out after a game happy that your side gave their all even after a loss.I went to both games and was angry that this didnt occur.

ARE you guys passionte enough about your club? And how have you felt when you see teams toy with the navy blue.

I'm certainly not here to defend Pagan to the hilt. He did a few things this year that had me scratching my head.

But at the same time I don't think ALL the blame at this stage should be heaped upon him.

Brittain was a shit coach, with a shit game plan, the only reason a lot of the games were close in 2002 was because of the shitty ring a ring a rosy Brittain game plan. We had the uncontested ball for so long and did nothing with it for so long the other teams did not get a chance to score.

One thing I love about the Pagan style of contested footy is that it stands up to the rigours of finals football. If a Pagan team makes the finals they are a huge chance to go a long way because of the style of football that is played.

Once the cattle on the park improve then I will be more prepared to criticise Pagan's coaching.

To this point I reckon he has done as well as anyone would have with the list we have.

The players try, they are just not good enough at this stage.

Blaming Pagan entirely is a cop-out.

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I agree the that Waynes style of play was ugly but the swans have shown you can pluck the cup with a similar game plan.

Why would it be getting tiring?
Effes has a different opinion and expectation than you.
I dont see what the problem is.

Perhaps Effes isnt happy to compare Lance against his past couple of average seasons.
Perhaps he compares Lance to Lance at his best.
If you compare Lance to 2000 when he had triple the contested marks, triple the contested possessions and 70 goals, how does he fare?

If you want to compare Lance to the underprepared, lazy and at times disinterested player who has has trotted out at times in the past couple of years, yes he went OK.

Is that what we've become?
Have our standards slipped that much?

No, Lance had a passable year in a wooden spoon side.
Dont compare Lance to the Bannisters and Davies, compare him to what Lance can be.
In the first 12 games, he hardly gave a yelp.
If thats tiring, so be it.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Yet you absolutely bag the shit out of Brittain circa 2002.
Brittains 2002 team was absolutely decimated with injuries.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

He still had better cattle though!

moo moo!

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Sounds like mad cow disease.

Brittian is marked very harshly.
The Carlton side of 2002 was destroyed by injury.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Firstly lets not hold up that Essendon* game - or if you do hold up that first one also - how can a side come back and win that one? That second game had many people screaming for us to lose, to protect the precious picks etc. Now i do not for a moment hink carlton tried to lose that game still the players and coaches etc do not live in a vacuum, what must have been tumbling around their heads pregamne and during the game, plus Seendon would remember that comeback I the first game and would have hated it. Those two combinations make this game not one I'd point out.

Lets take the biggest shock of the year that horrible game against the Tigers - no not the one we won that had many people shitting themselves, the first game. I was there, hated every single miniyte of it, and my rose coloure dglasses melted that day, have not worn them since so what happened?

Well either overnight DPO lost the playing group or something else happned, a Factor of things, like

Teague... now I hate tpo be right but during his first season i called that this bloke is bnot a long term prospect - shit myself when he then played a ripper secopnd half of the year and won our award BUT he is short and slow. One you can get away with but both? Teague on Stafford - jesus that looked great didnt it? But who else did we have?

Midfield. Now Kouta and Campo have been good for the club, Kouta a great player but - but are as unaccountable as my sister in her wild years (sorry sis) add Scotland and Stevo and you have a podwer keg - it went off that Richmond day, they killed us in the riuck, hit the ball to their players favour and away they ran - fair dinkum we exerted as much pressure as a fart in outer space. They ran riot, frolic like ball bouncing ballerinas in a free for all twirl of tiger tu-tu's and goals!

Backline. Simply, ours is shit.

Forward line. What happened to Fev and Lance - that's the big questioned that's really got my goat up. Fev and Lance won few games for us last year. During the whizzfizz it seemed they were destined to replace Batman and Robin as the dynamic duo, in the end they became the diddering duds. We are a crap team, we need our best playing at their best. These two did little, Lance improved going back to defence, Fev was great as a decoy while Fisher (ahh the breath of Fresh air Fisher - Pagan hasn't lost this one) and Waite (thought he's year was great - DP and SOV seem okay to me) and others kicked goals.

Second tier players - last year showed that Wiggo, Sporn, Bannister, Johnno, Davies, Morrell, Bowyer and others are body doubles at best - look good for photo shoots but don't ever put them in the real thing, they wobbly and tumble. Disappointed with Sporn and Wiggins, thought both would take big steps this year.

Walker, Prenda, Russell, Chambers and Hartlett. Each club needs to improve each year, I always thought ours might come from these blokes as much as anyone. Russell and Hartlett didn't play ('cept that cameo, and from what i saw of Russell, didn't deserve to either). Prenda evaporated. Walker is interesting and I admit to having doubtsd about the kid. I do not think he stays in the game but drifts. He needs to work, though the tagging roles was a clever idea by DP to try and get him to focus for a whole game. Did some nice things but compared to Cooney, miles away from what we want. is this where the friction lies - do DP and Tex see eye to eye? Maybe there are some players who are rubbed the wrong way by DP but I do not think they do not commit to the game, none of them. Chambers - bloody superstar in the whizzfizz, bloody soapy hands in the real stuff (when he got on the park).

Plus the intanglibles but mine are different - or more varied perhaps. How tough is it to be the whipping boys each year? How quickly do you lose confidence? Desire? Pride? What happens to those who have already been to two clubs? Do they drop their bundles? Think we are as brittle as merangue at the moment.

Coaching - think we are poor here, think we are predictable and easy to counter but maybe with better cattle predictability is not such a bad thing.

There is more but this will do for now.

Danny

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Danny he had someone sitting on the bench who was probably capable of limiting the Stafford effect. He could have move Teagued into a tagging role on coughlan dragged Campo to the bench .this would have freed up either Stevens or Kouta .Or was the selection of this guy the reason for the slack performances . Are their some players at the club who are not happy with this irish experiement as it may be a coincedence but his selection coincided with about 10 weeks of the worst football I have ever seen Carlton play . Plus he was bannished after that game never to be seen again.

There are some people who follow AFL who think these two guys have been given one hell of a free ride into the Elite level of football when there are 1000's of young guys who have busted there arses all their life and cant get a look in.
Just Maybe some of the players down the club are not all that happy about it either.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

But then what about Stynes at lemourbne or Kennelly - how come the players at those clubs handled it? Is this the leadership problem that others have referred to?

Is it the senior players that do not like this experiment?

As for possible coaching moves - I agree, i would have had Setanta on iafter 5 minutes but we are discussing the loss of playing group rather than tactics - if as you suggest, the playing group as a while dripped their bundled because the club selected an irtish kid aroiund 6' 5'' who can run fast and has played sport at an elite level then i think we are deep deep shit and still hjave not cut the cancer out of the club and that cancer predates DP!

Should Sticks be under scrutiny? should others who hang around the club?

Is something rotten in the state of Denmark that has still not been cut out?

Truly SB, if the players were pissed off because this club is trying to bring on two Irish lads then this playing group are a bunch of wankers!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Danny I am not saying this is the case but I am clutching at straws. It just seems that this game was a defining moment in the season from which they never recovered . As Jim stated earlier there was something that happened that completly sapped the confidence and the commitment of the players. It may have just been the realisation that they were crap or there could have been some other reasoning for it. I guess we will never know.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Yes I agree - thing the wheels fell well and truly off, i have no disagreement with this, just think it was a whole range of things rather than a single cause.

Have no doubt, i think DP has been a disapointment - but whether that is because I expected far too much or because he has delivered far too little, more likely a bit of both and other factors (its never one thing) at this point I am willing to wait and see, willing to give him three years in the draft properly. If at the end of that time wer are still shit then yes, all who have bagged him from the outset have been right, and thats the way life is, people make calls and sometimes we are right.

I just think we do not want to get too rash and not understand just how gutted a club this was when DP started.

My biggest fear at the moment is not with Denis in fcat, but rather the board and again I may not be seeing just how [REDACTED] the club was, how big the task, how little the steps need to be to make sure we get it right.

Perhaps we are all tainted with residue of the 80's when big dreams meant huge steps and quick fixes and swift turn arounds - course it also meant many things fell just as quiclky as they rose.

I want a strong club for the long haul not a temporary Tower of Babel.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Good posts from you guys.The next couple of years are crucial for many including the coach.hopefully we will see something progessive and give us some optimism for the future.

The coach should be first and formost questionable when we "continuously" play insipid, unaccountable, disinterested footy week in week out. As much as anything else regarding game day, he is the man incharge of motivation.

Our players went backwards in 2005 and there is only one reason for that, the coach lost them again. I have great fears about our future and find the constant "export" of Carlton greats for whatever reason a concern. But that's just me.