week in week out?

What games specifically?

I can think of two games last year - the Richmond game and the Essendon* game.

Other than that i think they were having a crack - thats the scary part for me. See blokes like Wiggo, T-Bird, Livo, Mcgrath, Bentick, Simmo, Bryan, Scotland, and so forth always have a crack because otherwise they are gone.

As I said Stevo seems fine

So are we talking about hmmm Kouta, Campo? Lance? Fev? Lappin?

gee you mean the guys we most rely upon aren't having a crack. Well if true (and i don't think its as easy as that) then they must be gotten rid of, but oh, we tried that with some and no one rerally wanted them and Kouta's contract means he must stay.

So rather than blaming DP maybe we have to watch and see if these guts either pull their fingers out or retire.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

After one game late in the season, it may have been against Collingwood, various people on Fox Footy were discussing how much heart Kouta had shown in the game. They were applauding his attitude.

yes amazing isn't it - people were screaming we were showing too much heart and now it seems they were not showing enough.

but verbs - this does not mean I am remotely agreeing with you

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Good!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Mate, believe what you want, you saw the effort all yearr and final result, work it out yourself. If you can't no-one can help you. The final result that's the proof, look at it. Games where we had 12-13 goals consecutively kicked against us with virtually no resistance or effort to stop it. Is that a side working as one? No side is actually that bad. If we were working as one, we'd be along way from the bottom. The Wizzer showed that. You have to ask, what happened between the Wizzer and the end of the season for such a huge drop-off in commitement. I suggest you take the rose colored glasses off, it might help. I'm sure if you rationalise enough you might eventually be convinced by your own argument. I'm sure though you'll find something to argue with from the 4 games we actually won.

By that flimsy rationale every team that finishes on the bottom of the ladder has a coach that has lost the players.

You will have to come up with better arguments than third hand rumours and pointing to heavy defeats to convince anybody Pagan has lost the playing group.

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I love that - disagree with me and your wearing rose coloured, well maybe you're wearing brown coloured (with tongue poking out emoticon here).

so far you have told us what you think and then just bagged me, but here's something, show us, give us something. or shut up and gloat when disaster strikes again this year.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Don't tell me to shut up mate. If I have an opinion I'll express it. If you don'tr like it, stiff shit. And why would I gloat? You idiot! Obviuosly no use arguing with clueless people. I've given you plenty to just too biased, too stupid, to understand. You just don't want to know, even when it's laid out in front of you. Hope the rest of your life isn't as delusional.

You are equally unable to accept or debate the other point of view. Sorry but you've lowered yourself in the quality of your post here.

Well reasoned argument on why Pagan has lost the playing group is fine, but just flinging stuff willy-nilly isn't going to help your argument.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Off-topic: but well done Clem, post 150,000 on TC there.

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He's telling it how it is re: Fevola isn't he? He's not being cryptic in the media re: Fevola. There are better examples Sydney.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Intersting mention of Barassi and how he'd seemed to have lost it in the 80s. Generally his "5 year plan" at MFC from 81-85 is seen as an abject failure and a joke. I disagree with that.

If any team resembled the rabble that Pagan inherited at Carlton it was MFC in the early 80s, the groundwork that Barassi put in in his 5 years saw Northey take that team to 5 consecutive final series including a PF and a GF, that did not happen by accident it was Barassi's good work. Do you think MFC players of that era liked him - I seriously doubt it. Think Gerard Healy or Robert Flower on the HBF.

Pagan is working the same program at Carlton right now. He is different from Barassi, less innovative but probably, if possible, more tenacious. My bet is he will see out the 5-6 tough years and stick around to reap the rewards of his own hard work.

I gather from that you agree with me that all his talk is Cryptic .

He would be far better in my eyes if he came out and told us what he really thought . All this secret service stuff anyone would think he was head of the CIA not running a club that finishes last. What about the comment early in the year that Livo and chambers would be right to play when he dam well knew they were weeks off, seriously what was the point of it who was he trying to fool . does he think the opposition were studying the worst side in the comp over the last three years that much. Did he really seriously think that side were building themselves up for a game against Carlton. .Its all crap and the only person he is kidding is himself

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Danny Boy I wanted our side to win every game it played not tank a season away for draft picks . Afterall what has it brought us nothing so far. We hope Murphy will be a star but there was no blackmail pick there doesn't seem to be much talent left in the preseason draft.

Fev and lance resigned because no else wants them. Carlton is on the nose we cant attract big name players to the club anymore. Bullen and Richards dont want to come and play with us. Past Champions of the club are leaving us in droves so disillusioned that their carreers are finsihed in 12 months.

Examples
Pagan arrives in 2002
Our Captain and games record holder who was embroiled in the salary cap drama offers his services to the club for one more year to try help the club after a meeting with DP he decides to leave.
Our newly appointed captain hurts himself mid season and with in a day walks out of the club
Our toughened hardened half forward flanker cops an injury and retires imediately.
Our third captain in the space of 12 months despite just winning the B&F leaves the club.
Our 2002 leading goal kicker and B&F wants out.
Our all australian ruckman wants out
Our 150 game half back man wants out.
Our youngest player ever to reach 150 games shops himself around
Our 2004 B&F before comming to the club came out and said that laidley was a better and more flexible coach than him
Now our 200 + game and one of 2 surviving Premiership players and Vice Captain of the club wants out
Our all Australian Half back flanker wants out.
Our b grade tagger wants out.

We have finished 15 th 10th and 16 th under this bloke we cant attract players to the club we are getting crowds of 16K turning up to watch us the so called block buster against Essedon recorded one of its lowest crowds ever.

How much more do you want Danny. I love the club to but Holly shit

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

sydney blue, I have never seen so much spin in one post.

This was my favourite:



You make it actually sound like we lost something. There were plenty of problems with our AA ruckman before Pagan arrived, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

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No worse tha some others saying he is doing a wonderful job and referring to his past record is it.
Allan was an AA ruckman once
Pagan was a Premiership coach once

Spin how you want

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Would be very happy to have Worsfold as senior coach when Pagan finishes up.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Examples
Pagan arrives in 2002
Our Captain and games record holder who was embroiled in the salary cap drama offers his services to the club for one more year to try help the club after a meeting with DP he decides to leave. - was 37 and perhaps DP and club were not prepared to pay him what he wanted. he certainly didn't offer to play for free. Plus we needed to begin to cull, its been a long process but let us not forget two importyant facts 1; We started from a long, long way back - as noted by every football writer in the land. 2) Two years with 1 draft pick below the third round.

Our newly appointed captain hurts himself mid season and with in a day walks out of the club - walking out on the clkub was hard but noticed rats retired because he could not go on. He was old and war weary and Denis may or may not have told him that this was no easy fix - we'll never know.

Our toughened hardened half forward flanker cops an injury and retires imediately. See above.

Our third captain in the space of 12 months despite just winning the B&F leaves the club. Again age/weary/waht was in front of him and the deamnds of a new coach. Alright so we lost three truly great players at the absolute end of their careers, so what?

Our 2002 leading goal kicker and B&F wants out. Who wants him?

Our all australian ruckman wants out - Allan - oh come on... Who would you play French or Allan?

Our 150 game half back man wants out. Yes and what a loss, gee hawks did so much better with him.

Our youngest player ever to reach 150 games shops himself around - and who wanted him?

Our 2004 B&F before comming to the club came out and said that laidley was a better and more flexible coach than him - then laidey traded him, gee wonder why? Maybe Teague was desperate to iumpress the new coach!

Now our 200 + game and one of 2 surviving Premiership players and Vice Captain of the club wants out - I wish we'd just push him oiut the door, Campo holds no currency with me, in the good old days this bloke would never have got to 200 games! Oh and who wanted to trade fgor him?

Our all Australian Half back flanker wants out. No, he wants a 3 year contract and everyone thinks 2 years is reasonable. This is a baord driven matter that has nothing to do with Pagan.

Our b grade tagger wants out. Who is this?

I mean really SB what we are talking about is this current group and whther DP is the man for the job - in fact all thoise points you've listed are in my entry for why he is the man for the job.

oh and jim - ease up mate - the shut up and gloat was supposed to be tongue in cheek, to lighten the mood, hence now lighten up, these are tough times but its not the end of the world.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Danny I thought I had the post to end all post ther but you ripped me to pieces. Full credit to you.

Danny I just hope and pray you are right and I am wrong about this man. I hope come round one next year that we have had the chance to see Russell - Hartlett- Blackwell - Raso- Murphy etc show there stuff in the NAB cup . I dont want to go through another year with nothing to look forward to . I dont want to see our youngsters wearing red shirts. I want to see them play in that Navy Blue

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws