I'm sick of this theory that the time's up for all the "old school" coaches - like Pagan, Malthouse, Sheedy, Matthews, etc. - and that Paul Roos and the like are the new way forward towards success.

As usual, everyone takes a micro look at things and draws wild conclusions.

Sure Roos and Mark Williams have won the last 2 premierships, but people like Mark Thompson and Grant Thomas for example have not - but they're considered at the vanguard of this new era.

Shall we have a look at the past decade of premiership coaches...

2005 - Roos
2004 - Williams
2003 - Matthews
2002 - Matthews
2001 - Matthews
2000 - Sheedy
1999 - Pagan
1998 - Blight
1997 - Blight
1996 - Pagan
1995 - Parkin

All "old farts" except for the most recent 2 years. Hardly conclusive.

So should we piss off Pagan and get some new age guru instead, like Chris Connolly?

Thoughts?

_________________

************************************************************
NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

I would have thought that Williams was an old skool style coach in any case. But it was interesting that for a little while it used to be said that "there's only 4 premiership coaches in the business" etc, etc, ... well obviously it was two years ago now that that was said ... but for much of this year all 4 teams coached by the old masters were either holding up the ladder, or damn close to doing so.

There may be some merit to old v new debate, but there may not. It's probably as much to do with list management I'd say. The Lions were always going to lose form eventually, no matter how good Matthews is. No need to mention our list, and likewise for the Pies and Bumbers. As good as Roos effort was to get Sydney over the line I will be interested to see how history judges this flag. Don't take anything away from the Swans, they were the best team on Grand Final day, but at the moment my opinion is that their win was a bit of an anomaly. Time will be the ultimate judge.

Back to Pagan. I think we're in a position where we need to stick with him for at least two more years anyway. Personally, I'm reasonably happy with that, but some of the things being posted about the board interefering with the coaching is a little bit unsettling I think. Seeing as, effectively, the board is Pagan's master what can he, or anyone else, do if these rumblings are correct?

And, NO, I don't think we should go for Connolly.

_________________
Click here to follow TalkingCarlton on twitter
TalkingCarlton Posting Rules

No we shouldnt go for Connolly but if another youngy like Thompson, Worsfold,Thomas, Wallace etc gets a flag then I reckon a few of the oldies might be headed for retirement....there are oldies and oldies.....Sheedy, Pagan, Matthews are older but some of the calls for Parkin to come back are ludicrous....what about Ian Thorogood..why not get him back..or Percy Jones..gimme a break.
We have to continue with Pagan and should be getting him some decent support staff...

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Intersting topic George. I think Mick Malthouse was a young coach when he won flags, not so young now. But was his effort to get an ordinary side to the GF in 02 and 03 better than his coaching only two flags with the super talent he had at WCE. I think their talent built on the enormous concessions they had when they came in (far greater than any of the other new sides) should have got them a bit more success.

All coaches can do is get the very best from the talent at their disposal. Hard to judge DP. We have little talent and have been the worst performed side over the last 4 seasons.

The main thing to say about Roos is that he is one of a select band to win a flag without having the most talented list at his disposal - so a phenomenal effort. Should Sheedy have won more than four flags? They are hard to win but in 85 his side was touted as one of the greatest ever and didn't win another final for four years. In 2000, they were utterly dominant but only got one flag out of that group.

I think the energy required of coaches is probably harder to muster if you are pushing 60 rather than 40 and I think coaches can get a bit out of touch. Barrassi is a good example, as innovative coach as there has been in his first 15 years but in the 80s looked like the game had passed him by.

If DP can make something of the Blues over the next three years his rep will be enhanced but another few shocking seasons and he'll be looking like yesterday's man. I've been a bit equivocal of DP, I don't think he is great on strategy or innovation, but he is very single minded and disciplined, and those are the qualities that got the Swans a flag.

Regardless of how much the game evolves, time and time again it is the team that has is the fittest [come sept] and the team the does the basics best, that goes all the way.
On paper the Swans are not the most talented. But they are accountable, they play for their mates, they are hard at the ball and they look to enjoy it.
Good luck too Roos for getting the best out of his side. Tactically I don't think he is a genius, nor is Williams for that matter. But their boys fought hard enough to get the ball and had enough skill to use it.
I see no reason, given time why Pagan can't formulate a team to do likewise.
Unfortunately the house Pagan inherited was infested with white ants.
The exterminators have almost finished their job.
Pagan has drafted his plan for the new renovations.
Now he's looking at getting the right blend of hard working, skilled trades to complete the job.
Regards Pedro.

Isn't funny how when people bring up new age coaches names like Connolly and Rhode get tossed up all the time and they conviently forget Worsfold- Williams - Roos - Thompson and Craig. The fact remains that the top ten sides this year were coached by the so called New Age coaches 4 of the bottom six were the so called old style coach.
To me you are better off determining coaches by not their age but their style and you can basically break them down into four catergories.
1.Discipline coaches Such as Pagan- Sheedy- Eade - Malthouse
2.Moderates- Wallace- Grant- Craig - Danniher- Williams
3.Forward thinkers- Roos- Worsfold - Thompson- Clarkson - Matthews
4. Fruit Loops - Connolly - Laidley- Thomas

Williams and Matthews could be put into groups 1 ,2 or 3

In this day and age you really need the players and the coach heading in the same direction - If they are not it doesn't matter how good he is you wont go anywhere. Pagan started at the club on the wrong foot and got offside with half the players as they were used to a totally different style to his. He now seems totally inflexible which will ultimatelt lead to his downfall. Wrong coach at the wrong time

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I disagree with your last comments SB.
The players are employed by the club. The Coach is incharge of them.
Their job is to play football the way the coach wants them too.
If the player can't adapt [after the workplace training has been in place for sometime] then move on.
These guys are getting paid a lot to do their jobs, I undersatnd the length of their job maybe short. But make the most of your opportunities.
Anyone who has played footy has probably had a coach you don't necessarily like. Stiff shit, he's the coach, you do as he asks. If not for him, then for your mates and your club. If your getting paid and your a mercinary, then do it for the money.
Regards Pedro.

Pedro if I went to work and my boss asked me to do something that I knew was not right or there was an easier way of doing it. I wouldn't do it his way I would do it my way. Hundreds of buisnesses go broke ever year over bosses with head up there arse attitudes. Pagan has his head so far up his own arse that he refuses to listen nor compromise with any of the players that is why the only success he has had at the club was last year when he recruited a heap of blokes playing for the careers . Once they thought their careers were secure their output dropped off. Listen to the way he talks to the media it is all cryptic talk none of which makes any sense and he has fools trying to second guess what he is saying. Its a smoke screen for his lack of ability to get this side to lift. He needs to learn to compromise - he needs to listen to others and he needs to be more open when he is talking in public. Listen to Roos and Worsfold no nonsense no bullshit . Send the right signals to the playing group and the supporters and then we will start down the right track. Not say Fevola is sensational one week and then say you have a different opinion on how to play football the next. Fools talk it fools no one other than himself and his merry band of Paganites that hang off every word he says.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

How do you know this SB - you hang around the cliub, spoken to these players?

I know Stevo rates DP.

I knopw Livo likes him.

Walker certainly said he did.

Scotland was rapt.

So who are you talking about/ Campo? he can @#$%&! off.

Lance? Yes well it is true DP wanted him to turn up fit and not over his playing weight.

Kouta?

Who?

I mean he certainly seemed to have everyone on side during the whizzfizz so who and when?

Or is it that we have a list that at the moment is shit for two reasons. Old players are old and passed their best and new players are young and not yet at their best and the inbetween is mainly retreads due to past recruiting (pre Pagan) and penalties?

My main worry with Denis is ruckmen. Then again maybe Batson and Aisake(?) are in his plans there.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

No4.........Fruitloops..............Reckon thats hilarious Syd.
Why dont all you guys lighten up.Effen hell boys,The season is just over and you are allready into indepth analysis.
Kickback fellas.

_________________
All my dangerous friends

I think that the jury is still out on the new age coaches.

Take Woosha for example.
He has been great so far, assembled a great team and list with depth, a blend of experience and youth, superstars and foot soldiers.

But at the end of the day, if he doesn't get at least 2 flags out of his current group, then he will be regarded as an under-achiever as Sheedy was with his 2000 group.

I don't think that Pagan will be with the club for say more than another 3-4 years, but I think that he was the best coach for Carlton at the time of his appointment because of the position that the club was in.

And finally - Please God, do not even entertain the idea of sending that tool Chris Connolly to coach the Carlton Football Club?????

You dont have to hang around the club to know DP . Its all there right in front of you. And yes I have spoken to players who have played under Pagan before and I have witnessed first hand his handling of some of the players. DP to me seemed convinced he had the team to move forward after the Wizz Fizz- the fact that we didnt shows you he is out of touch. Remember those articles and quotes - "The skys the limit for these guys". "There will be a more even contribution this year and gone are the floggings". "We taking little steps forward-" quote after quote after quote from DP . Where did we finish - last . The best quote of all was that the other teams studied us in the Wizz cup and worked out our game plan. So that was it that was your plan some one works it out and you have nothing to counter it. Some of those lines should go down with Schwabs "we are going to win the flag this year" they were that far off the mark its ridiculous. The man speaks with a fork in his tongue he neither wants to or bothers to answer someone straight and when confronted with a difficult question he gets agressive. Sorry Danny I dont like him.

You are right about our lack of a ruckman though if we had two to three decent ruckman we would be far more competitive. You have to get first use of the ball in the modern game with out you are a dead duck. Jolly and Ball were the sole reason Sydney won the flag this year as against previous years.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

sorry but you do have to hang around. otherwise its just guess work - and what players - name them. If its the old carlton brigade was any coach that did'nt give them free rein was not going to be popular, if its Nth players - shit i'd take his success there in a flash.

Whether you like him or not is not relevant. We are talking about him coaching. In the end you judge a list a coach has got and then decide how they have gone with that list.

Matthews had a brilliant list and then coached them brilliantly to 3 flags.

Roos had a solid list but got a flag out of it - doubt he'll ge another next year though.

Pagan has a crap list and is getting crap results which i expect until two more years of development in the kids. Clubs cannot turn a list around quickly - take away two years of early picks and they cannot turn them around at all. Now this is our second year back in the draft, just our second and it hasn't even happened yet.

So this year i expect to see Russell and Hartlett and Blackers showing stuff (not a lot, just cameos) plus Murph (if we take him) and pick 4 and 20.

If 4 of these 6 can be very good to excellent

and 1 of Setanta or Raso or Aisake make it

that will be 5 added to Fisher, Carrots, Betts, Bentick, Stevo, Walker, Fev, Simmo, T-Bird, French, Waite & Lance, and we begin to see a side emerge.

Maybe 2 of Houla, Sporn, Lance, Livo, Bryan, Wiggo, Teague, Chambers, Longmuire or Davies step up and cement a place and become very good players

if we can grab a very good player in the PSD that will make 14 good to very good players and maybe 5 excellent ones and suddenly things will turn.

Not this 2006 but 2007's result will tell me how denis is going - though i do expect to see signs next season.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Actually I seem to remember Pagan telling Carlton fans at the start of the season after the wiz cup....not to get carried away and that there was a long long way to go but that they are on the right track. Seems to me he was spot on.

Now ...tell me folks ...how on earth can one constantly deride the playing group yet can the coach....lets see how he goes with a decent list then if he fails criticise him but not before.

As for old coaches and new coaches...unless one has played the game....stood there and listened ...trained and developed under both...how the hell would one know

[/quote]

_________________
carn the blues

Well said, that just about sums its up nicely. Thats why he keeps losing the players, badly.

For 2 of the 3 years he's been at Carlton players haven't remotely been close to having a go. Some weeks total disinterest. If a coach has the players on-side that would NEVER happen. Work it out. The players hate him. Got that from someone who's close to a player.

which player?

I know Stevo says the oppositte, so? Livo has twivce told me he likes Denis, 'hard but fair' sort of stuff.

as for not putting in - shit i thought people on this site were shitting themselves last year because the players were putting in and we might lose the precious picks - now it seems that we had nothing to worry about?

fair dinkum i understand people not liking Pagan - thats fine but argue from facts not dreamed up charges of unrest.

Get down to training, the voice, the energy, the excitement there blows my mind away; we should be handing out oscars left right and centre 'cos obviously these blokes are brilliant actors.

Oh and why did Fev resign? Lance resign? etc. Why are these players fleeing the club like rats?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Not for me to tell you the player.

Problem we all have in life, we like to believe what we want to believe but in reality have a look week in, week out at the efforts of the team, without rationaising your way around it. A story there somewhere? Do they look they they're playing for their coach? Surely not! The efforts are lamentable. Until there are changes at the top, everything else will be like shuffling the deck-chairs on the Titanic.

week in week out.. can you squeeze a few more generalities in there to bolster your belief. Give some facts. Show me the money!!!!

At the moment you are proving you dislike DP - fine but that's got nothing to do with anything.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Don't have to give you anything, if you want to contnue to delude yourself, that's up to you. If you want to believe has has all the players on-side, despite the total lack of endeavour, effort and any sort of committment, that's up to you, Don't let me stop you. Seems obvious to me. As I said, knowing someone close to a player, the players generally can't stand him, don't care at all whether you want to believe it or not. To me, it's not half obvious by the way they play. You can lack talent, which they don't as much as people think, but you can still always have genuine crack. If they're not then you have to ask why. Simple eough? It is to me.