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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Donstuie wrote:
Effes wrote:
Yes Ratten was a dud list manager but MM could have given a few the flick at the end of last year.

After all we did offer $1M to Cloke (white knight complex again)

Such as?


Davies Joseph White (for example)

It's called paying out the contract

The club should be familiar with it - they do it with the coach every 4 years.

A $1M offer to Cloke from a club which apparently was hamstrung by contracts. :donk:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:27 am
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HERE GOES NOTHING..............
This should have been our slogan this year instead of "I am Carlton".
Tonight was a total and utter embarrassment and thankfully puts an end to the 2013 season which promised a lot and delivered nothing other than a cold hard reality check. If I hear injuries/rotations used as an excuse I will vomit!!!. This game was over in the first qtr and had dogs kicked straight we should have lost by 10 goals plus.

Here are the simple facts - We have a team of mediocre and poor players who are not good enough to take us to the next level, our top players are all having a bad season and in reality we have no real "A-graders". As has been the case for the last 5 years too much is left to too few but unfortunately players like Judd and Murphy have lost their powers.
Our skills are poor especially kicking, our tackling is laughable, our decision making under pressure is awful and our tactics are flawed.
Most disturbingly our mental fragility is so ingrained in the team that I fear/believe we will never go forward until the majority of current players are gone.
FACT we are at least a 6 years away from finals success and that assumes we don't continue our history of terrible recruiting.

My anger is not just directed at tonight's loss but rather the culmination of a shithouse season which has seen me lose more hair and nearly all faith in our team.

I am happy to give the players a spray because they deserve it but so does Mick Malthouse for another week of terrible team selection and poor coaching.
Our midfield has been killed for 6 weeks in a row yet we make 4 changes (2 forced and 2 omissions), 3 midfielders go out yet we dont bring in a single midfielder WTF????? Graham has been killing them in the VFL yet he cant crack a spot in the weakest midfield in the comp??? Bell should also have been in the team as a ball winner. We are getting smashed at clearnaces/stoppages all over the ground yet we bring in players who are incapable of changing the situation.

I realise for some reason Maltouse hates Laidler and has stamped his card but how bad can he be to have only been given 1 game all year??? I mean its not like he is trying to break into the Swans stable backline, this is a dysfunctional leaky back line. If Laidler was in the team it would free Simpson (or Walker) to go into the midfield where he has played his career best footy. Whilst I am talking about the backline a simple message for Scotland and Touhy, if you want to sneak forward you have to be prepared for the ball to come back with interest, it's all well and good to kick a flashy goal Touhy but Dickson killed you when the ball was in their forward line, just like last week Walters 4 goals negated your 3 goals - Your a defender!!!

Everyone has mentioned that the 3 amigos does not work, even Malthouse conceded as much yet he selects them again and it fails again.....Take the hint Mick they are hopeless and as a forward line we will never succeed whilst they run around together. If we want to look at players who deserve to be in the side none of garlett, Betts or Yarran should be playing they are down on form and their workrate is awful. Having 3 of essentially the same player is ahuge disadvantage b/c when they flop they cannot be rotated elsewhere on the ground.
Whilst I am talking about flops.......Sam Rowe......OMG!!!! Seriously he is not up to AFL standard and is a liability to the side, I would love to hear the justification for his selection, Casboult and Mitchell may be bad but they are surely better than Rowe.
Each week after a loss you tell us about changes that will be made yet you persist with the same crap players, if your harshest punishment is making Yarran the sub then you have clearly bluffed everyone with your so called tough attitude.
Tactics - I have mentioned it before but the game plan of play wide and maintain possession may haver worked at Collingwood but it doesn't work at Carlton as we dont have the footskills neccessary to pull it off. By all means keep trying it but dont be surprised when it fails repeatedly.

Mick you have told us there will be list changes but I want to see more than that and I want to see something happen NOW. How you can come out and say anyone is untouchable from the current list is a joke. The only reason they would be untouchable is because nobody else wanted them!

Its easy for me to bag such an insipid side but "I want answers" I hear you say......
Well here goes. Short term and Long term.

Short term:
Team changes - Out: Yarran,Betts, Warnock, Rowe, Armfield, Garlett,
In: Graham, Bell, Laidler, Kreuzer, Mitchell, Lucas,

Tactics - More direct style of footy with an emphasis of using the corridor especially when entering forward 50. Waite to play further up the ground true CHF and have Hendo closer to goal. The addition of Laidler across HBF allows simpson into midfield. Walker to go rotate going forward and move Waite or Hendo to HBF if playing against talls such as Dons or Tigers. Gibbs into the midfield and Cacchia to go into defence. Players like Touhy and Scotland to focus on defence rather than sneaking up the ground and then being hurt on the rebound.

Play the kids - menzel, graham, temay, mitchell etc.., there is nothing to lose and its now all about selling hope for 2014 to weary memebers.

Find Some Pride - This team is devoid of flair, dash, and most sadly heart. They look like a dis-spirited sad team that does not want to play for each other, the coach or the club. After a win the club song is sung with no gusto and after a loss the players look as if it was all inevitable. Where is the passion, where is the pride??

Long term:
This is what is really important because 2013 is done and dusted.

1. Trade and Delist: - We must rebuild (I hate that word) unfortunately that is what is required and we need players across all lines - skilled midfielders, a KPP (forward preferably) and an effective inside midfielder.
You want names????? I'll give you names:
Delist - Rowe (who u just gave another contract), Collins, Okeefe, Joseph, Duigan, McArthy, Mitchell (if he is not up to it), Scotland to retire.
Trade- 2 of Yarran, Betts, Garlett, definitely trade Warnock (who the hell gave him a 3 year deal??), Hampson, Robinson, and 2 of: Armfield, Curnow, Carrazzo, Bell or Cacchia as they are all too similar.
I am sorry to say we must trade a player with currency to get something so that means it may be time to say goodbye to Gibbs, Jamo or even Walker or a similar player. My choice would be Gibbs (even though I like him)
Essentially every player except for Murphy and Hendo is open for trade talk. Simpson is almost off the table b/c he is the only one who shows some heart every week.
Here is a trade worth considering - Yarran, warnock and pick 8 for GWS pick 1 which we use on Boyd.

2. Forget Arizon and altitude training it a flowering waste of time in fact we are proof it is a rort. Spend the money on kicking, tackling and fitness coaches and the remainder spend on psychologists to try and engineer this team a backbone and a hard edge.
Start preseason in the first week of September because this season has proved we are no fit enough!!

3. Change the game plan (already discussed) and promise us we will never ever have to endure the 3 small forward line setup.

4. Pray!

I could go on but I need to go and eat dinner even though I lost my appetite watching the game.

GO BLUES


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
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Blueboy74 wrote:
Scary thing about today is that the Dogs have a few more that will only improve in time that didn't play......

Hrovat, Stringer, Macrae, Hunter, Smith, Williams and Talia......


Yeah..and people here are blaming Mick for all our ills
Worst list management in the AFL by a country mile

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Are all the sakc ratts people suddenly realizing he wasn't the only problem?
Many here didn't want MM.
He is a professional coach from another era when shouting at players and sticking rigidly to plan A was acceptable.
The new, young coaches have new, young ideas and game plans and they have passed the MM game plan by years ago.

Ratts may have been lacking in a lot of ways but at least he loved this club and it hurt his heart when he lost. It just hurts MM's ego.

We are officially crap and MM will not take us anywhere. He will rebuild the team into a 1980's-style dream team that will finish bottom half of the eight. Luckily he only has two years left.

2-3 years ago is another era?

Ratten built this shit... Malthouse has to fix it

I'll judge MM on next years performance


2-3 years ago was the end of an era, not the start of one.
Look at Collingwood now. Their style of play is OK but they can't cut it against the good running sides. They are still playing MM's game, albeit tweaked a bit. The young players MM had are now mid twenties and yet they can't win games like they used to. It isn't them, it's the plan. Kicking to a 50-50 doesn't work any more. It's now a possession and running game. Good teams change from one to the other when it suits during the game or as a set play.
We couldn't do that to save our lives because we are being told to play a 20 year old game plan.
Someone else wrote it. MM has changed us from fast, exciting and unpredictable to predictable and unexciting. We still ahven't won more games as a result.

Betts/Garlett/Yarran set the world on fire when they burst onto the scene. Now they have to do this and that and they can't get a kick. Why? because we used to be a team that ran and created space. MM doesn't like space. He wants close in, contested footy with no turnovers in the corridor. By closing down the game, he has closed down running players like those above and Murphy. And Walker. Now they have to get it and kick to a player free on the boundary or to a contest on the boundary in case we turn it over, Problem is (and we saw it again tonight) as soon as we do turn it over, it goes straight out to a running player and ends up in the only space we never occupy, the corridor and results in s F50 enrtry. Even FREO a team that averages about 80 points a game, managed to kick about 120 against us by running the footy.
Rattan took this shit to a semi and we lost it by 3 points. In 2012 we had the worst run of injuries I can remember. Then MM becomes a free agent and we just HAD to have him.
Well we've got him now.
I hope he works out but I'm not happier or more confident than I was this time last year.

Da Pois are doing a number on the premiers... with a "tweaked MM gameplan" as you say

The gamplan still works... just not with our overrated duds

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:00 pm 
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formerly cj69

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99prelim wrote:
Blueboy74 wrote:
Scary thing about today is that the Dogs have a few more that will only improve in time that didn't play......

Hrovat, Stringer, Macrae, Hunter, Smith, Williams and Talia......


Yeah..and people here are blaming Mick for all our ills
Worst list management in the AFL by a country mile


That is he biggest issue. What have we got coming through to be excited about?

Graham, Menzel ????????

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Can't say I was too surprised or disappointed with today. Just glad the season is nearly over, not that I think 2014 will bring much joy.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:01 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:37 pm
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BluesRockMyWorld wrote:
Players need to step up and be counted. Our team with the season on the line wilted plain and simple.... Again! Yes maybe mm hasn't been the deity, but the players have a lot to answer for. How can a Carlton team put up such an insipid performance? This was a game against a shit team. The media has been kind to us in reality, because they have been on the mark with were this list is at. Seems as though most if not all the players tonite just accepted that and had no belief. Harden the !@#$%& up! Show some heart some guts and determination, show something! If it wasn't before its now time to get graham in and give Menzel an extended run. Maybe others...


Simple skill errors are costing us too - surely the players have to wear that. Armfield's chest mark on the wing (maybe due a spell). Walkers's kick in (not to mention some very poor defensive efforts). Missing targets & Jamo's penchant for going over the boundary on the full or a mongrel kick.
Opposition forwards that kick a goal seem to often the line up on 1AW (and Zach as well for that matter but he's at least showing some character and hitting the scoreboard the other end).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:01 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Navy Blue Horse wrote:
That kick out from Walker that landed at Scotland's toes and resulted in a dogs goal was such a momentum killer. Has been awful for a month or so AW I reckon.


100%

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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We've got a team who think they're the harlem globetrotters, where in fact they're really the washington generals...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 1:48 pm
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bondiblue wrote:
Navy Blue Horse wrote:
That kick out from Walker that landed at Scotland's toes and resulted in a dogs goal was such a momentum killer. Has been awful for a month or so AW I reckon.


100%

What about that crap at the 31 min mark of the 3 qrt when Cooney handballed forward from stoppage for Dogs player to kick easy goal. Bloody hell, how many times can this happen?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Effes wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
Effes wrote:
Yes Ratten was a dud list manager but MM could have given a few the flick at the end of last year.

After all we did offer $1M to Cloke (white knight complex again)

Such as?


Davies Joseph White (for example)

It's called paying out the contract

The club should be familiar with it - they do it with the coach every 4 years.

A $1M offer to Cloke from a club which apparently was hamstrung by contracts. :donk:

So on top of paying out contracts to our head coach and two of his assistants, we should've done the same for a bunch of dud players no-one else wanted a bar of?

We can blame Mick for his decisions on selection and gameday, but it was shithouse list management from the previous regime that got us in that situation, and had nothing to do with Mick.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 2033
Hornet wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
Are all the sakc ratts people suddenly realizing he wasn't the only problem?
Many here didn't want MM.
He is a professional coach from another era when shouting at players and sticking rigidly to plan A was acceptable.
The new, young coaches have new, young ideas and game plans and they have passed the MM game plan by years ago.

Ratts may have been lacking in a lot of ways but at least he loved this club and it hurt his heart when he lost. It just hurts MM's ego.

We are officially crap and MM will not take us anywhere. He will rebuild the team into a 1980's-style dream team that will finish bottom half of the eight. Luckily he only has two years left.

2-3 years ago is another era?

Ratten built this shit... Malthouse has to fix it

I'll judge MM on next years performance


2-3 years ago was the end of an era, not the start of one.
Look at Collingwood now. Their style of play is OK but they can't cut it against the good running sides. They are still playing MM's game, albeit tweaked a bit. The young players MM had are now mid twenties and yet they can't win games like they used to. It isn't them, it's the plan. Kicking to a 50-50 doesn't work any more. It's now a possession and running game. Good teams change from one to the other when it suits during the game or as a set play.
We couldn't do that to save our lives because we are being told to play a 20 year old game plan.
Someone else wrote it. MM has changed us from fast, exciting and unpredictable to predictable and unexciting. We still ahven't won more games as a result.

Betts/Garlett/Yarran set the world on fire when they burst onto the scene. Now they have to do this and that and they can't get a kick. Why? because we used to be a team that ran and created space. MM doesn't like space. He wants close in, contested footy with no turnovers in the corridor. By closing down the game, he has closed down running players like those above and Murphy. And Walker. Now they have to get it and kick to a player free on the boundary or to a contest on the boundary in case we turn it over, Problem is (and we saw it again tonight) as soon as we do turn it over, it goes straight out to a running player and ends up in the only space we never occupy, the corridor and results in s F50 enrtry. Even FREO a team that averages about 80 points a game, managed to kick about 120 against us by running the footy.
Rattan took this shit to a semi and we lost it by 3 points. In 2012 we had the worst run of injuries I can remember. Then MM becomes a free agent and we just HAD to have him.
Well we've got him now.
I hope he works out but I'm not happier or more confident than I was this time last year.

Da Pois are doing a number on the premiers... with a "tweaked MM gameplan" as you say

The gamplan still works... just not with our overrated duds


Can't believe people were expecting miracles from Malthouse this year

We have an average list and it didn't matter who was coaching Carlton this year

Like some posters have said, we will have a better indication in Year 3 about his appointment

We all need to accept that we have missed our premiership window and need to rebuild


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am
Posts: 8131
Cons:

A club/team that simply lacks the required resilience to compete, let alone triumph.
3 terrible quarters of football.
Injuries again.
A side that wasn't prepared to run. Obviously selections and injuries didn't help. But most of that can't be blamed for what we saw in the first half. Is there any other team that allows its defenders to be exposed one-on-one as much as ours. In fact today it was even worse, because half the time our defenders were outnumbered by the Bulldogs runners streaming in.
An inability to win contested ball.
I still don't understand why Rowe's still in the team. Cachia should probably have been out of the team 3 weeks ago as well.
Not sure what we're trying to do with Yarran. Clearly not suited to play as sub, and yet we keep playing him there. Needs to play behind the ball. Completely bereft of confidence. Can't even hit a target at the moment.

Pros:

Bootsma's 2nd half.
Curnow's work effort.
Slight improvement from Murph.
Slight improvement from Betts.
Some nice signs early from Menzel.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:14 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:48 pm
Posts: 1392
The game was lost at the selection table.

Three midfield/running types out and ZERO in......Then what happens if one extra goes down? which happened today with Judd.

Rowe should have been dropped for Waite, Graham should have played and Lucas should have stayed in.

Just like the St Kilda game at the start of the year with 3 rucks playing. You make it very hard for yourself with those selections.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Donstuie wrote:
Effes wrote:
Donstuie wrote:
Effes wrote:
Yes Ratten was a dud list manager but MM could have given a few the flick at the end of last year.

After all we did offer $1M to Cloke (white knight complex again)

Such as?


Davies Joseph White (for example)

It's called paying out the contract

The club should be familiar with it - they do it with the coach every 4 years.

A $1M offer to Cloke from a club which apparently was hamstrung by contracts. :donk:

So on top of paying out contracts to our head coach and two of his assistants, we should've done the same for a bunch of dud players no-one else wanted a bar of?

We can blame Mick for his decisions on selection and gameday, but it was shithouse list management from the previous regime that got us in that situation, and had nothing to do with Mick.


Why not? The players contracts would be SFA compared to the coaches.

He endorsed the list.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:17 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Better hope we get the greatest assistant coaches of all time next year.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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can't see why anyone would want to come to the club. players or coaches

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:23 pm 
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formerly Virgin Blue

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I think part of the problem is the backline. It's so poor we have to deploy players like Walker and Scotland and Simpson and Gibbs down there. And let's face it Jamison is useless with ball in hand.

I'm not sure whether Mick was right to put a line through Duigan and Laidler, but it's had a flow on effect in that we have had to plug holes with players who ideally would be playing onball.

As a result we have a largely blue collar midfield whose over reliant tagging focus robs us of proactive midfield play. Obviously the lack of recruiting in recent years of quality midfield prospects accentuates this problem.

Now this might be Mick trying to blood a new midfield or teaching players in general to be more defensive. Unless you're in the inner sanctum you won't know what the reasoning is. I sure as hell don't know for sure, though I can see several possible reasons.

But as much as I have defended Mick all year at the end of the day the coach needs to take some heat for an inexcusable loss , which today's was. Certainly the players look flat.


Last edited by Sugarcane on Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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cimm1979 wrote:
Better hope we get the greatest assistant coaches of all time next year.

i hear we are.... im serious!!!... they have a whos who list ... for our 150th next year... its not allowed to be a disaster...

actually mick wanted more money spent and they said no...
so i reckon mick threw everything up into the air this year and let them come down so they see where were at

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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Mick's presser.
http://youtu.be/h7Q361rIp8g

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