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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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woof wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
[Over the past 20 years, the premiership has usually been won by the team with the lowest or one of the lowest injury tolls.
Direct correlation! Fact.
The last team coached by Malthouse with a similar injury list finished second last. Fact.


In 2011 Collingwood played 25 games.
Jolly missed 9 games, Johnson missed 9 games, Beams missed 9 games, Shaw missed 8 games, Dawes missed 7 games and Maxwell 6 games.
They won 22 games out of 25 games.

Hawthorn had a few out last year too.... They didn't go to water.

We have terrible leadership.

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:48 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
aramari wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..the thing with last year, was that the wheels were falling off before the injury toll got truely worse.. ..we were worked out as a team, and our plan A was easily pulled apart and used against us, we never had a plan B.. ..we rarely played with team-wide defensive intent and structure.. ..did our injury toll play a part with us missing finals?, sure.. ..would be have been top 4 with less injuries?, i doubt it.. ..our game plan was built upon a few stars playing out of their skins, it was not sustainable, and once strong/better teams locked down those few we crumbled, as evidenced over the last few years..


Yep. We were premiership favourites playing freewheeling footy at the start of last year, and dismantled in a half of footy vs Essendon*. They worked us out very easily. We were cooked - anyone who watched Carlton closely would have known that it was no aberration. The injuries cost a spot in the finals, but it's not like we were heading for top 4, don't kid yourself with revisionist bullshit!


Didnt we lose 3 players in the first quarter in that bombers game? Then come out the week later and beat Freo. We were going alright. More and more players started dropping after that.

Freewheeling is a bit steep. We were playing very compact ,defensive football for the first 5 weeks last year. Giving the opposition no space and time with the ball. Re watch those games. You will be impressed.
The bombers showed a weekness (while geared off their t1ts). They put more players around the ball and left a goal keeper. Some teams copied it later and got results but as the season went on that tactic was not the reason we were losing. We were losing because we couldnt field a well balanced team with talent week after week. Injuries got a hold of us.

I don't mind if people think that injuries played no part in our poor season but a careful analysis of each week should me made by posters before believing one thing or another.


Last edited by club29 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:52 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Geez this is an angry thread - not just the usual culprits either.
I reckon it's the Bye.
Hang in there fellow Carlton tragics ... it'll be over soon. :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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club29 wrote:
aramari wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..the thing with last year, was that the wheels were falling off before the injury toll got truely worse.. ..we were worked out as a team, and our plan A was easily pulled apart and used against us, we never had a plan B.. ..we rarely played with team-wide defensive intent and structure.. ..did our injury toll play a part with us missing finals?, sure.. ..would be have been top 4 with less injuries?, i doubt it.. ..our game plan was built upon a few stars playing out of their skins, it was not sustainable, and once strong/better teams locked down those few we crumbled, as evidenced over the last few years..


Yep. We were premiership favourites playing freewheeling footy at the start of last year, and dismantled in a half of footy vs Essendon*. They worked us out very easily. We were cooked - anyone who watched Carlton closely would have known that it was no aberration. The injuries cost a spot in the finals, but it's not like we were heading for top 4, don't kid yourself with revisionist bullshit!


Didnt we lose 3 players in the first quarter in that bombers game? Then come out the week later and beat Freo. We were going alright. More and more players started dropping after that.

Freewheeling is a bit steep. We were playing very compact ,defensive football for the first 5 weeks last year. Giving the opposition no space and time with the ball. Re watch those games. You will be impressed.
The bombers showed a weekness (while geared off their t1ts). They put more players around the ball and left a goal keeper. Some teams copied it later and got results but as the season went on that tactic was not the reason we were losing. We were losing because we couldnt field a well balanced team with talent week after week. Injuries got a hold of us.

I don't mind if people think that injuries played no part in our poor season but a careful analysis of each week should me made by posters before believing one thing or another.

Lol.
The dockers were getting their heads around a new coach and they threw that one away... We didn't win it.
The interesting games you cannot run away from are port gold coast and saints.
Plus you're the one who last year blamed the psyche of the players for the losses. What's changed now?... I can guess. Lol

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 am
Posts: 22357
woof wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
[Over the past 20 years, the premiership has usually been won by the team with the lowest or one of the lowest injury tolls.
Direct correlation! Fact.
The last team coached by Malthouse with a similar injury list finished second last. Fact.


In 2011 Collingwood played 25 games.
Jolly missed 9 games, Johnson missed 9 games, Beams missed 9 games, Shaw missed 8 games, Dawes missed 7 games and Maxwell 6 games.
They won 22 games out of 25 games.


Vital players right there....

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:47 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:52 pm
Posts: 2044
Effes, Blue Vain, Big Blue Wave:

You are terrible judges of coaches and coaching. If you want a fair assessment of Ratten V Malthouse & just use numerical comparisons Give Malthouse the same 116 games that Ratten had. I will tell you what give Malthouse 4 Full seasons less than 116 games. That is if you want to take away all of your biases.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:53 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:52 pm
Posts: 2044
Your injury arguement which you use as an excuse for everything covers up the fact
a) the wheels fell off before our injuries
b) we had no defensive mindset necessary to win premierships
c) and a heap of mature players who even when fit played well below they have this year (Henderson, Garlett, Jamison, Walker, yarran,)
d) and the first time in since 1990 we have seen evidence of young players developing: Bootsma, Lucas, Cachia


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 4919
dane wrote:
woof wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
[Over the past 20 years, the premiership has usually been won by the team with the lowest or one of the lowest injury tolls.
Direct correlation! Fact.
The last team coached by Malthouse with a similar injury list finished second last. Fact.


In 2011 Collingwood played 25 games.
Jolly missed 9 games, Johnson missed 9 games, Beams missed 9 games, Shaw missed 8 games, Dawes missed 7 games and Maxwell 6 games.
They won 22 games out of 25 games.


Vital players right there....


Particurlarly when Cameron Wood was the back up ruckman.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18022
Michael Jezz wrote:
Effes, Blue Vain, Big Blue Wave:

You are terrible judges of coaches and coaching. If you want a fair assessment of Ratten V Malthouse & just use numerical comparisons Give Malthouse the same 116 games that Ratten had. I will tell you what give Malthouse 4 Full seasons less than 116 games. That is if you want to take away all of your biases.


Moronic argument.
Different list composition with players at different stages of their development.
You never cease to amaze.

FWIW, I know Malthouse is a better coach than Ratten. Thats what is lost in all this.
Its the ridiculous judging of Malthouse against what happened at Carlton last year thats what frustrates me.
Last year was an anomaly as far as I'm concerned. Lets judge Malthouse by the previous 3 years as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:15 pm
Posts: 4842
BigKev wrote:
Geez this is an angry thread - not just the usual culprits either.
I reckon it's the Bye.
Hang in there fellow Carlton tragics ... it'll be over soon. :thumbsup:


It's thrown up some god-awfully smug people, too, I notice. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:22 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Synbad wrote:
club29 wrote:
aramari wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..the thing with last year, was that the wheels were falling off before the injury toll got truely worse.. ..we were worked out as a team, and our plan A was easily pulled apart and used against us, we never had a plan B.. ..we rarely played with team-wide defensive intent and structure.. ..did our injury toll play a part with us missing finals?, sure.. ..would be have been top 4 with less injuries?, i doubt it.. ..our game plan was built upon a few stars playing out of their skins, it was not sustainable, and once strong/better teams locked down those few we crumbled, as evidenced over the last few years..


Yep. We were premiership favourites playing freewheeling footy at the start of last year, and dismantled in a half of footy vs Essendon*. They worked us out very easily. We were cooked - anyone who watched Carlton closely would have known that it was no aberration. The injuries cost a spot in the finals, but it's not like we were heading for top 4, don't kid yourself with revisionist bullshit!


Didnt we lose 3 players in the first quarter in that bombers game? Then come out the week later and beat Freo. We were going alright. More and more players started dropping after that.

Freewheeling is a bit steep. We were playing very compact ,defensive football for the first 5 weeks last year. Giving the opposition no space and time with the ball. Re watch those games. You will be impressed.
The bombers showed a weekness (while geared off their t1ts). They put more players around the ball and left a goal keeper. Some teams copied it later and got results but as the season went on that tactic was not the reason we were losing. We were losing because we couldnt field a well balanced team with talent week after week. Injuries got a hold of us.

I don't mind if people think that injuries played no part in our poor season but a careful analysis of each week should me made by posters before believing one thing or another.

Lol.
The dockers were getting their heads around a new coach and they threw that one away... We didn't win it.
The interesting games you cannot run away from are port gold coast and saints.
Plus you're the one who last year blamed the psyche of the players for the losses. What's changed now?... I can guess. Lol


LOL. I was just trying to disprove a statement in the post I quoted which had nothing to do with what you have typed. LOL

Right no more Lols from me.

...as pointed out by someone earlier. Mick had less injuries than that in his 2005 squad and was lucky that Pagans Blues were there to take bottom spot off him. Lose a bunch of key players and things fall apart pretty quick.

.....and yes i still reckon Ratts biggest fault was putting the wrong blokes together. No toughness, "bad phyche", too introverted which bread poor leadership and too many flankers. It had nothing to do with where he coached from, the lollie snakes, positional moves, closed sessions, stats in press conferences, what he looked like and what team he played for in 95' or any of the other lame arse suggestions that were being fired around last season. LoL

Lets not put the other posters through this again. Write it down if you have to so you can refer to it when you next feel like asking me the same questions again........and again...and again....and again. Lol


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 4919
Blue Vain wrote:
FWIW, I know Malthouse is a better coach than Ratten. Thats what is lost in all this.
Its the ridiculous judging of Malthouse against what happened at Carlton last year thats what frustrates me.
Last year was an anomaly as far as I'm concerned. Lets judge Malthouse by the previous 3 years as well.


That is fair enough.
I just don't believe that Ratten was going to get us to the next step, injuries or no injuries.
It is a big jump to get into the top 4 and stay there for several years to have a fair dinkum crack at a premiership.
You need someone that can sustain the hunger in the players and be prepared to be innovative over a long period of time.
I think Mick can, I don't think Rats could.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:25 am
Posts: 356
I think some are exaggerating our improvement just a little bit. We haven't beaten anyone ahead of us, we're still prone to lapses in games and we're giving up about the same amount of points per game as last year. On the plus side we're scoring a little more than last year and our losses are more "honourable" but all things considered it's relatively minor improvement so far IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 5:15 pm
Posts: 7360
Michael Jezz wrote:
Your injury arguement which you use as an excuse for everything covers up the fact
a) the wheels fell off before our injuries
b) we had no defensive mindset necessary to win premierships
c) and a heap of mature players who even when fit played well below they have this year (Henderson, Garlett, Jamison, Walker, yarran,)
d) and the first time in since 1990 we have seen evidence of young players developing: Bootsma, Lucas, Cachia

Point A is why I don't rate our injuries excuse for 2012 as much as others on here do.

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:27 am
Posts: 33188
Location: In the box.
club29 wrote:
Synbad wrote:
club29 wrote:
aramari wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..the thing with last year, was that the wheels were falling off before the injury toll got truely worse.. ..we were worked out as a team, and our plan A was easily pulled apart and used against us, we never had a plan B.. ..we rarely played with team-wide defensive intent and structure.. ..did our injury toll play a part with us missing finals?, sure.. ..would be have been top 4 with less injuries?, i doubt it.. ..our game plan was built upon a few stars playing out of their skins, it was not sustainable, and once strong/better teams locked down those few we crumbled, as evidenced over the last few years..


Yep. We were premiership favourites playing freewheeling footy at the start of last year, and dismantled in a half of footy vs Essendon*. They worked us out very easily. We were cooked - anyone who watched Carlton closely would have known that it was no aberration. The injuries cost a spot in the finals, but it's not like we were heading for top 4, don't kid yourself with revisionist bullshit!


Didnt we lose 3 players in the first quarter in that bombers game? Then come out the week later and beat Freo. We were going alright. More and more players started dropping after that.

Freewheeling is a bit steep. We were playing very compact ,defensive football for the first 5 weeks last year. Giving the opposition no space and time with the ball. Re watch those games. You will be impressed.
The bombers showed a weekness (while geared off their t1ts). They put more players around the ball and left a goal keeper. Some teams copied it later and got results but as the season went on that tactic was not the reason we were losing. We were losing because we couldnt field a well balanced team with talent week after week. Injuries got a hold of us.

I don't mind if people think that injuries played no part in our poor season but a careful analysis of each week should me made by posters before believing one thing or another.

Lol.
The dockers were getting their heads around a new coach and they threw that one away... We didn't win it.
The interesting games you cannot run away from are port gold coast and saints.
Plus you're the one who last year blamed the psyche of the players for the losses. What's changed now?... I can guess. Lol


LOL. I was just trying to disprove a statement in the post I quoted which had nothing to do with what you have typed. LOL

Right no more Lols from me.

...as pointed out by someone earlier. Mick had less injuries than that in his 2005 squad and was lucky that Pagans Blues were there to take bottom spot off him. Lose a bunch of key players and things fall apart pretty quick.

.....and yes i still reckon Ratts biggest fault was putting the wrong blokes together. No toughness, "bad phyche", too introverted which bread poor leadership and too many flankers. It had nothing to do with where he coached from, the lollie snakes, positional moves, closed sessions, stats in press conferences, what he looked like and what team he played for in 95' or any of the other lame arse suggestions that were being fired around last season. LoL

Lets not put the other posters through this again. Write it down if you have to so you can refer to it when you next feel like asking me the same questions again........and again...and again....and again. Lol


LOL........ youre reminding me of someone.....but your arguments are silly... unlike the guy youre reminding me of.... youre weird...!!!
One won a flag and the other was from the 1995 flag side with best mate sticks.. he ate snakes.. spoke stats to death...and locked us out of training....plus he was a shit coach!!!.. what dont you understand about that?????....he is so flower shit noone would ever hire him as a main coach again....!!!... we kept extending his contract......... ..... ....

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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:27 am
Posts: 2345
Synbad wrote:

LOL........ youre reminding me of someone.....but your arguments are silly... unlike the guy youre reminding me of.... youre weird...!!!
One won a flag and the other was from the 1995 flag side with best mate sticks.. he ate snakes.. spoke stats to death...and locked us out of training....plus he was a shit coach!!!.. what dont you understand about that?????....he is so flower shit noone would ever hire him as a main coach again....!!!... we kept extending his contract......... ..... ....


Ratten wasn't a good coach. It took me longer than some others to concede but when I did, it became somewhat obvious.

I'm happy for all the measures Malthouse has brought along. Another couple of wins to this point of the year and we'd all be smiling and looking forward to the second half of the year.

I'm not stressed about Malthouse at all.........for now at least, but he must have full support from the board. He has to now and that must continue without egos getting in the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:39 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
[quote="harker"
Ratten wasn't a good coach. It took me longer than some others to concede but when I did, it became somewhat obvious.

I'm happy for all the measures Malthouse has brought along. Another couple of wins to this point of the year and we'd all be smiling and looking forward to the second half of the year.

I'm not stressed about Malthouse at all.........for now at least, but he must have full support from the board. He has to now and that must continue without egos getting in the way.[/quote]


For me it's not that I like Ratts it's more I really don't like Malthouse. Would be happy if he retired tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:27 am
Posts: 2345
club29 wrote:

For me it's not that I like Ratts it's more I really don't like Malthouse. Would be happy if he retired tomorrow.


That all sounds somewhat subjective to me.

I haven't seen anything from Malthouse yet, that suggest he isn't putting his all into his job............His Job.

Malthouse hasn't come into this club to be seen as a Carlton man. He has a job to do and is earning his money for now. Nothing to dislike about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:05 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
harker wrote:
club29 wrote:

For me it's not that I like Ratts it's more I really don't like Malthouse. Would be happy if he retired tomorrow.


That all sounds somewhat subjective to me.

I haven't seen anything from Malthouse yet, that suggest he isn't putting his all into his job............His Job.

Malthouse hasn't come into this club to be seen as a Carlton man. He has a job to do and is earning his money for now. Nothing to dislike about that.


Yeah true.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust Malthouse
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:27 am
Posts: 2345
club29 wrote:
harker wrote:
club29 wrote:

For me it's not that I like Ratts it's more I really don't like Malthouse. Would be happy if he retired tomorrow.


That all sounds somewhat subjective to me.
I haven't seen anything from Malthouse yet, that suggest he isn't putting his all into his job............His Job.
Malthouse hasn't come into this club to be seen as a Carlton man. He has a job to do and is earning his money for now. Nothing to dislike about that.


Yeah true.


Not setting out to be a smart-arse club29, but the fact is that Mick has the players on-side in a manner that Ratten (and most people for that matter) cannot do.

The kids are in awe of Mick and the seniors are largely respectful. It's never perfect I guess, but we're somewhat ahead of where we were this time last year.

The mould is being formed and now the players have to step in to see this clubs performance show up meaningful results.

6-6 doesn't look terrific, but the curve is on a definite upward trend. Only history though will prove some of us right and some of us wrong.


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