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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25551
Location: Bondi Beach
ThePsychologist wrote:
At the weekend we played our Best balanced side in a long while.

I am hoping during the second half of the year we have a similar type line up.

B: Simpson Jamison Laidler/McInnes
HB: Walker White Tuohy

Foll: Warnock/Kruezer Judd Murphy
C: Yarran McLean/Curnow Gibbs

HF: Garlett Henderson Armfield
F: Betts Waite Casboult

Int from: Menzel Bootsma Graham Carrazzo Lucas Robinson Bell Ellard


Lots of run, pace and good ball use.
Jamo, Laidler, Waite, Henderson, Walker & White are all interchangeable.
I still believe Laidler's ball use, intercept ability and 3rd man up role is needed.
Lots of goalkicking options.
Game is really going away from contested ball so one of McLean/Curnow play. Curnow more a tagger and McLean more of a ball winner.
Gibbs to fill Scotland role on wing dropping back and distributing
Garlett, Yarran, Betts rotate through middle.
Simpson seems to have settled well in BP.
Menzel, Bootsma, Graham, Lucas are the future.
Either Warnock or Kruezer play, not both.


Fair enough.

Relying heavily on White, Laidler and McInnes to release Hendo.

So if Warnock was selected as 1st ruck you'd drop Kreuzer and play any of Menzel Bootsma Graham Carrazzo Lucas Robinson Bell Ellard Casboult White Laidler and McInnes ahead of Kreuzer? I am having a think about that. Can't see Kreuzer being dropped ahead of those I've just mentioned.

I too love Casboult's mits, but I'd still have Kreuzer ahead of him, and would rather play Kreuzer CHB ahead of White than drop him. I think Kreuzer just has to learn to kick straight and to hold onto a few more marks...which he can improve on imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:42 am 
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formerly cj69

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am
Posts: 7893
Come the end of the year I expect our best 22 plus to look something like this:

B: Simpson Jamison McInnes
HB: Walker Henderson Yarran
C: Lucas Gibbs Bootsma
HF: Garlett Waite Armfield
F: Betts Casboult Menzel
Foll: Kruezer Judd Murphy
Int: Tuohy Carazzo Robinson Graham Temay Warnock Bell Cachia McLean

I would also keep: McCarthy, Buckley, OKeefe, Curnow, White & Ellard

IMO that's a very good line up. The rest are up for discussion for trade or delisting. Add depth and some real class to that line up and 2014 is looking good.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:59 am 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9115
Location: Nth Fitzroy
ThePsychologist wrote:
Come the end of the year I expect our best 22 plus to look something like this:

B: Simpson Jamison McInnes
HB: Walker Henderson Yarran
C: Lucas Gibbs Bootsma
HF: Garlett Waite Armfield
F: Betts Casboult Menzel
Foll: Kruezer Judd Murphy
Int: Tuohy Carazzo Robinson Graham Temay Warnock Bell Cachia McLean

I would also keep: McCarthy, Buckley, OKeefe, Curnow, White & Ellard

IMO that's a very good line up. The rest are up for discussion for trade or delisting. Add depth and some real class to that line up and 2014 is looking good.


Different every week??

Still reckon you need to focus on picking players with good endurance. All 22 of them. We look great when we have the legs and are dominating our opponent. We just cant keep it up for long enough. You can see when the fade out is coming. You see our backmen trailing their opponent at HB and the guy then receiving the overlapping handpass has a metre or 2 on his Blue opponent. Then we make a fatigue error or two. Out of bounds on the full. A stupid free falling on a back. From there its hold on if we can.

Your team looks very good although I would swap out Bootsma for a proper fit running player. Scotland for now.
Any position we can slot an onballer with good endurance into without ruining our structure I would do.

Or tweak our gameplan to make us more efficient in scoring. Teams still have no need to beat us in clearance. No need to tag us. No need to worry about our inside 50 count. No need to worry about the tackle count. They just pinch it off us in our 50 and use all that space in front of them to score efficiently. While doing that we will run out of puff and make it even easier for them as the game goes on.

We can't be that much more unfit than other teams. It has to be the mix or the gameplan being too taxing. Or peptides.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:41 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Given speed is our greatest asset of course our game plan is taxing! And of course that makes us vulnerable to counter attacks. Hence the need for constant pressure in our forward 50. Our best 22 is going to change depending on the opposition and hence the need for depth. At Etihad, Kruezer, Casboult and Rowe with Waite worked pretty well, however we did tire as a result of Murphy's and Robinson' injuries.


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 Post subject: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:53 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Melbourne
carntheblues wrote:
Given speed is our greatest asset of course our game plan is taxing! And of course that makes us vulnerable to counter attacks. Hence the need for constant pressure in our forward 50. Our best 22 is going to change depending on the opposition and hence the need for depth. At Etihad, Kruezer, Casboult and Rowe with Waite worked pretty well, however we did tire as a result of Murphy's and Robinson' injuries.


Hawthorn would of tired too if Mitchell and say Burgoyne copped injuries.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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O'Keeffe stay at the club? Unfortunately it appears his body can't handle AFL footy.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:11 pm 
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formerly Virgin Blue

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:40 am
Posts: 1628
Cachia and Levi are locks

Hopefully throw in McCinnes, Menzel and Graham too and maybe Bucks

Then we need to trade and use Free Agency wisely to fill holes


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:15 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9115
Location: Nth Fitzroy
carntheblues wrote:
Given speed is our greatest asset of course our game plan is taxing! And of course that makes us vulnerable to counter attacks. Hence the need for constant pressure in our forward 50. Our best 22 is going to change depending on the opposition and hence the need for depth. At Etihad, Kruezer, Casboult and Rowe with Waite worked pretty well, however we did tire as a result of Murphy's and Robinson' injuries.


Do you think we would have subbed off Casboult or Rowe if Murphy or Robo didn't get injured? Having the extra tall gave us options early but late it was thorn in our side.

I would have thought that with speed being our greatest asset we could apply our press further back down the field and then use the space in front of us to use that speed. Therefore not need the extra tall. The space will make scoring and moving the ball easier. As it stands now we get it forward. Lock it in. The opposition say ok we will all come back into your press and make it impossible to score even on repeat entries. We wear ourselves out. They worry about one stat only and that is score against. Then when we are cooked, frustrated and the game opens up they open us up and we cop an honourable loss winning all stats but not the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Murph is one of our few 4/4 players.

I'd go so far as too say he's often more influential in the second half than the first.

So we sub out Cas or Rowe and on come Lucas, who was very good when he came on.

Anyway, can't change the stuff now.

A loss before a bye is bad, two is awful and we face the prospect of a third or 4th loss on the other side.

Errgh.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Vale 1953-2020
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am
Posts: 11671
club29 wrote:
carntheblues wrote:
Given speed is our greatest asset of course our game plan is taxing! And of course that makes us vulnerable to counter attacks. Hence the need for constant pressure in our forward 50. Our best 22 is going to change depending on the opposition and hence the need for depth. At Etihad, Kruezer, Casboult and Rowe with Waite worked pretty well, however we did tire as a result of Murphy's and Robinson' injuries.


Do you think we would have subbed off Casboult or Rowe if Murphy or Robo didn't get injured? Having the extra tall gave us options early but late it was thorn in our side.

I would have thought that with speed being our greatest asset we could apply our press further back down the field and then use the space in front of us to use that speed. Therefore not need the extra tall. The space will make scoring and moving the ball easier. As it stands now we get it forward. Lock it in. The opposition say ok we will all come back into your press and make it impossible to score even on repeat entries. We wear ourselves out. They worry about one stat only and that is score against. Then when we are cooked, frustrated and the game opens up they open us up and we cop an honourable loss winning all stats but not the game.

Hmm. Never looked at it that way.... then again, I don't know much about modern footy strategy - zones, presses, etc. So it seems that what you're saying is that WE instigate an opposition flood against us (to use more old-fashioned jargon). And if we were to set our zone/press about 30 metres further out from our goal (than we do now), then the same thing would happen, BUT instead of being in our 50, it would be around the centre or just ON the 50, giving us a more open forward line. Thus making it harder for THEM to stop us scoring; i.e. making it easier for US to score. Is that right?

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Last edited by moshe25 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Posts: 2722
Interesting question when with Rowe, Waite and Casboult up forward we generated a mismatch with Burgoyne on Rowe. We just couldn't make enough use of it. Also Hawthorn kept dropping numbers back. In that case do you man them up and make them accountable or still keep our numbers further up the field. I think that MM chose the side based on the smaller space of Etihad and the need to have key forwards able to take strong contested marks. At the MCG with more space the extra tall would probably not have been selected I'm guessing.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am
Posts: 8189
Interesting theory. You could well be right. Just another sign that we've finally got a coach who knows what he's doing. We're still losing more games than we'd like at Etihad, but at least now we're far more competitive. There's finally some method in the madness.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:10 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9115
Location: Nth Fitzroy
moshe25 wrote:
club29 wrote:
carntheblues wrote:
Given speed is our greatest asset of course our game plan is taxing! And of course that makes us vulnerable to counter attacks. Hence the need for constant pressure in our forward 50. Our best 22 is going to change depending on the opposition and hence the need for depth. At Etihad, Kruezer, Casboult and Rowe with Waite worked pretty well, however we did tire as a result of Murphy's and Robinson' injuries.


Do you think we would have subbed off Casboult or Rowe if Murphy or Robo didn't get injured? Having the extra tall gave us options early but late it was thorn in our side.

I would have thought that with speed being our greatest asset we could apply our press further back down the field and then use the space in front of us to use that speed. Therefore not need the extra tall. The space will make scoring and moving the ball easier. As it stands now we get it forward. Lock it in. The opposition say ok we will all come back into your press and make it impossible to score even on repeat entries. We wear ourselves out. They worry about one stat only and that is score against. Then when we are cooked, frustrated and the game opens up they open us up and we cop an honourable loss winning all stats but not the game.

Hmm. Never looked at it that way.... then again, I don't know much about modern footy strategy - zones, presses, etc. So it seems that what you're saying is that WE instigate an opposition flood against us (to use more old-fashioned jargon). And if we were to set our zone/press about 30 metres further out from our goal (than we do now), then the same thing would happen, BUT instead of being in our 50, it would be around the centre or just ON the 50, giving us a more open forward line. Thus making it harder for THEM to stop us scoring; i.e. making it easier for US to score. Is that right?


THat is pretty much it. That is the way I see the hawks, swans and even the cats doing it. Saints do it when they play us. I am sure there would be a heat map going around which tells which part of the ground teams are pinching the ball back the most. Scoring on turnovers is big business. I know last year geelongs dark purple was further back than most. Instead of the last few years teams talking about playing in their half it could well be playing the game in our 3/4 being more relevant to todays game.

There is a reason the Hawks didn't try and lock down on our mids. Them being on top meant nothing in the end. They played the long game.

Just a theory. It is worth watching out for.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:46 pm 
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formerly cj69

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am
Posts: 7893
club29 wrote:
Still reckon you need to focus on picking players with good endurance. All 22 of them. We look great when we have the legs and are dominating our opponent. We just cant keep it up for long enough. You can see when the fade out is coming. You see our backmen trailing their opponent at HB and the guy then receiving the overlapping handpass has a metre or 2 on his Blue opponent. Then we make a fatigue error or two. Out of bounds on the full. A stupid free falling on a back. From there its hold on if we can.


I don't think it has anything to do with fitness. IMO it's all about depth and rotations. When our quality gets tired especially after so much effort we struggle. We just don't have the quality across 22 players. Add the quality of Murphy and Robinson for 4 qtrs plus Carrazzo and it makes a huge difference.

That's why its important to turnover 8-12 on our list and try and get more and more quality. This will be the key plus the development of guys like Menzel, Yarran, Graham, Buckley, Temay, Bell etc

Another key forward and key defender would be handy as well. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:03 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9115
Location: Nth Fitzroy
ThePsychologist wrote:
club29 wrote:
Still reckon you need to focus on picking players with good endurance. All 22 of them. We look great when we have the legs and are dominating our opponent. We just cant keep it up for long enough. You can see when the fade out is coming. You see our backmen trailing their opponent at HB and the guy then receiving the overlapping handpass has a metre or 2 on his Blue opponent. Then we make a fatigue error or two. Out of bounds on the full. A stupid free falling on a back. From there its hold on if we can.


I don't think it has anything to do with fitness. IMO it's all about depth and rotations. When our quality gets tired especially after so much effort we struggle. We just don't have the quality across 22 players. Add the quality of Murphy and Robinson for 4 qtrs plus Carrazzo and it makes a huge difference.

That's why its important to turnover 8-12 on our list and try and get more and more quality. This will be the key plus the development of guys like Menzel, Yarran, Graham, Buckley, Temay, Bell etc

Another key forward and key defender would be handy as well. :thumbsup:


Either unfit or gameplan too taxing for little reward.
I know what you are saying re depth but it doesn't explain why our players start falling a couple of metres behind their opponent, get lazy with tackles and making fatigue errors midway through the third and onwards. Mick talks about it too as fatigue.


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:36 pm 
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formerly cj69

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Posts: 7893
Where do we sit now? Obvious a lot aren't up to it.

My best side for 2014 and beyond.

B: Simpson ????? Laidler
HB: Bootsma Waite McInnes

Foll: Kruezer ????? Graham
C: Walker Gibbs Tuohy

HF: Menzel Henderson Judd
F: Garlett ????? Murphy

Int: ??????


How do we fill the gaps? Do we have players on the list that can improve to fill the roles or can we recruit them?

What we need is 30 plus players who can all step in.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:46 pm
Posts: 832
Watson in for Laidler Psych.
Hope Walks shows more ticker than last few weeks. Jibbed a few contests of late.
Shit, we're stuffed.
I think you have too many of the same type of player Psych. ????? ????? ????? ?????


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:48 pm 
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formerly Blue Boots

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:18 am
Posts: 1901
ThePsychologist wrote:
Where do we sit now? Obvious a lot aren't up to it.

My best side for 2014 and beyond.

B: Simpson ????? Laidler
HB: Bootsma Waite McInnes

Foll: Kruezer ????? Graham
C: Walker Gibbs Tuohy

HF: Menzel Henderson Judd
F: Garlett ????? Murphy

Int: ??????


How do we fill the gaps? Do we have players on the list that can improve to fill the roles or can we recruit them?

What we need is 30 plus players who can all step in.

You have forgotten Armfield. Graham and Menzel will definitely get more games but will they be best 22? Still think Jamison is our best and only real option at FB at this stage, you can slot McLean in as well. Murphy will spend more time in the middle as well one here thinks.

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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10625
ThePsychologist wrote:
Where do we sit now? Obvious a lot aren't up to it.

My best side for 2014 and beyond.

B: Simpson ????? Laidler
HB: Bootsma Waite McInnes

Foll: Kruezer ????? Graham
C: Walker Gibbs Tuohy

HF: Menzel Henderson Judd
F: Garlett ????? Murphy

Int: ??????


How do we fill the gaps? Do we have players on the list that can improve to fill the roles or can we recruit them?

What we need is 30 plus players who can all step in.


Seriously Psyc, I'm not going to bother with most of that but at the very least.....JAMISON. WTF!


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 Post subject: Re: Our best 22?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:45 pm 
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formerly cj69

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am
Posts: 7893
SurreyBlue wrote:
ThePsychologist wrote:
Where do we sit now? Obvious a lot aren't up to it.

My best side for 2014 and beyond.

B: Simpson ????? Laidler
HB: Bootsma Waite McInnes

Foll: Kruezer ????? Graham
C: Walker Gibbs Tuohy

HF: Menzel Henderson Judd
F: Garlett ????? Murphy

Int: ??????


How do we fill the gaps? Do we have players on the list that can improve to fill the roles or can we recruit them?

What we need is 30 plus players who can all step in.


Seriously Psyc, I'm not going to bother with most of that but at the very least.....JAMISON. WTF!


I apologise Surrey, especially given your argument in the affirmative. Your definitely right. Jamison is a lock. Great defender, been awesome, rarely beaten, great user of the ball, sets up attack from defence. I'd rate him alongside Silvagni & Southby.

A definite. My mistake.

Personally I blame Mick.

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