Why does Denis have too much power? There is this bizarre notion that a football team is a democracy, or should be turned into a socialist entity. Pagan has to have the power so he can make the necessary decisions. The club pays him a shitload of money to bear the responsibility of moving the playing group forward, yet there are some out there who believe that decisions need to be made for him. I would venture to suggest it is the same group of people who, after taking away the decision authority, will then blame Denis for every on-field and playing list failing. The bottom line is, you can't have it both ways.

Assistant coaches are there to assist, and I'd guess that maybe Pagan has the respect of his assistants in the same manner Sheedy's men respect him, otherwise they wouldn't have their roles in the first place.

As for a predecessor who has played the game to Pagan, I think we might be thinking in terms of a successor. All coaches have a different view on tactics, but someone who is going to learn from Pagan, is naturally going to be influenced by his thought processes. In effect, a contradiction. The only effective way to get a complete change is to bring someone in from the outside who has been influenced by a different culture.

Which is why we hired Pagan in the first place.

The only way we can judge Denis is by his performance. Taking away his authority will mean taking away the ability to assess how he performs.

Absolutely.

By giving Denis full control of the football department you give him sole responsibility.

If he fails there's no hiding.

Let him try.

If he fails it's his fault and he goes.

At this stage he hasn't been there long enough or had enough to work with to be able to be judged properly as far as I'm concerned.

Three years 15th - 11th - 16th = Fail
Paul Roos took over the swans 3 months earlier than Pagan took on Carlton who were travelling just as bad as us with just as crap list they have a flag we now have a spoon, He is wonderful this bloke best coach in the league no one could have done better
When will he be there long enough ????

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

So if the board believes there’s a problem within the THEIR football department it’s ok for them to ignore the problem and let it fester for a further 3 YEARS before they attempt a fix?

At least Paul Roos had picks to play with!!
Pagan has had one hand tied behind his back with the lack of early picks plus the disappointment of the 2000 draft crop.

I'm not sure how good Pagan is, and I'm one of those who wanted to re-sign him after the Wizzer and then cursed the re-signing a month or two later. Right or wrong he is there now, and we have to have the guts to let him run the footy team. Imposing assistants on him is a recipe for disaster even though I wish we had some new blood on the MC (and maybe we will have additions). Just got to hope the board have got it right. And comparing him to Roos is not really fair. Roos did brilliantly to get the fourth or fifth most talented team up for a flag - a brilliant coaching performance, but most of that side was drafted before Pagan arrived at Carlton (or Roos at the Swans) Can't blame Pagan for the Blues diabolical drafting. We've only been fully in one draft since he's been there.

Those draft picks would have made how much of a difference ??
Go back and read all the so called experts at the beginning of 2003 there were all saying the swans had the worst list they continually topped up they never drafted youth they all had them sitting on the bottom of the ladder. You know all those things you guys keep touting about how we drafted so poorly. The only difference is that Paul Roos backed his players - not delist them or trade them . He saw whats good about them and they now have a cup and we have a spoon. Roos respects his players and the players respect Roos. If Roos had wiggens Sporn and livo on his list he would be getting better performances out of them than what Pagan does . those guys are just as talented as crouch bolton and buchanen but Roos gets the best out of his players Pagan doesn't. The sooner we realise it the better off we will be.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

yes, I would have to say Pagan has been a failure. The playing list has improved very little in his time... and we can say "picks this" and "picks that", but ultimately, as many players as he's developed have actually regressed. We're on the cusp of delisting most or all of the players drafted from 2000 to 2002... which is a real worry.

I'd say he's been a marginal failure

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Love Cricket? Love me

I partly agree SB but we have got DP for three more years, we can't pay him out and we have to give him the opportunity to succeed. Anyway the same pundits had Adelaide bottom this year. Guys like Fosdike and Bolton were top ten draftees some years back. We could have drafted Bolton but got Murray Vance, could have drafted Goodes but took Chatfield. That's not Pagan's fault, he wasn't there. If you look through the Swans how many draftees were pre 2002 - most of them, and in the drafts those players came from we either swapped picks for hacks or drafted guys (Massie; Chatfield ; Vance) delisted prior to Pagan coming.

We are crap and are going to have to take our medicine. Maybe Pagan will fail, in three years we'll get to make a definitive judgement.

PS There's no way Livo SPorn and Wiggo are as talented as Bolton, Crouch and Buchanan, and crouch and Bolton have been in the system for several more years

So you telling me that 4 top 20 picks wouldn't make a difference??
You must be smoking good shit in sydney brother

Sydney had a crap list

Surely you are joking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No he really thinks like that Effes..

Seriously...

Hall
Goodes
O'Laughlin
Maxfield
Kirk
Keneally
Barry
Davis
Crouch
Schneider
Williams

(I'm sure their list is longer - these are just off the top of my head)

If Denis had been a better coach our guys could have been that good...

The Fact is Pagan has too much power! he cant control everything on the football front. If he is controlling everything he is not effectively spending enough time other sections of the football club. Pagan needs help too manage the football club better. We don’t need a Sheedy as our assistant coach, but we need keen coaches who have diverse ideas to Dennis but are willing to learn.

1 person cannot have complete control of a large area. It is proven in all aspects of life. Eg in Parliament what is better having a balance of powers where each move is questioned and thoroughly checked, or where 1 party has complete control, and can do what ever they want.

We need the personnel to work as a team but also bring in there own ideas.
If he’s moves are questioned every now and again Pagan would stop retaining players/ assistants he socially likes rather than what is best for CFC. Eg Mick Martyn

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

What did you think of guys a few years back. What did you think of those guys at the start of the season - what did you think of their list when they pumped by Stkilda earlier this year . Yes you were one of the many that said they had no game plan and were ugly there were even people on this site saying when we played them it was going to be a nil all draw. there were also people on this site calling for simpson and benticks head now all of a sudden after a few good games they are players for the future. See GWS lists always look better and players always look better when they are winning. What did you think of our list in 2000 .

GWS I picked the Swans to win the flag back in may you can check my post if you like. Who did you have your money on bet it wasn't them.

Now heres something else for you and you can book mark this if you like. With in the next two years Fremantle will win the flag. And I'm sure you will be on here telling me what a great list they have.

now you sit on this site day in day defending Pagan and blaming the previous administration for our clubs problems . Its the horrible threesome that caused all our problems Lappin Campo and Whitnal. But you no what despite them picking up cheap possessions despite the lack of leadership and despite them being un fit to pull on a Carlton jumper according to you. Our Supercoach dropped them to the Bullants how many times this year. Our coach is that terrific he noticed what was draggin the side down and demonstrated with these players didn't he. Or thats right he didn't did he. See GWS it is not me that is full of crap it is you.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The game passed Pagan by in 2000 when flooding really stepped up in football. At the moment he is just using his rep to cash in so he can buy more horses and enjoy his retirement. The worst decision Elliott ever made was to sign Pagan and as bad as that was, Collo's decision to re-sign him is even worse.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Would you like to tell me where it is that I said that about the Swans Sydney?

I don't remember making comments about them at all.

I'm happy to be proved wrong but I'd like to see what I said.

If you can do that then I'm happy to engage with you on this Sydney but I'm at a loss to defend what it is that I don't remember saying...

Rightio then, one season of completely unacceptable performances and you want to sit back and 'let it ride'.

Excuse me for thinking Elliott is back running the club and pulling the wool over the supporters eyes.

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

if, as people screamed, we needed to come last and we did and we got the P.P. then hasn't the coaching staff done a remarkable job? Why should they be sacked when they did what people cried out for?

Pagan should recieve a wage increase - @#$%&! it - immortalise him, he managed to earn the P.P. we are saved!


So we cannot scream to finish last and then punish the very people that delivered what we wanted - can we?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Lucky he wasnt a shit coach or we would have Deledio and Franklin too...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Optus Oval and Brendan Fevola cost us those players Synbad.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides