It may be a fear of change. Personally I think we need new blood, particularly someone young with a good grasp of strategy. But the board having signed up Pagan for 3 more years (and I'm not sure that was a terrific idea), but having done it they probably need to be mindful of his judgements in employing assistants.

Seems very odd that no-one on the coaching staff bears any responsibility for our performance. Still very hard to implement changes Pagan doesn't want and impose them on him if he is head coach.

PS BM stop looking for a fight, let's not have yet another thread degenerate into name calling

Im calling the whole establishment as gutless.
Its a club that just hasnt moved on with the times.
It doesnt understand what needs to be done to REBUILD!!!...
There should be no ifs or buts about Lance Campo and Skinny going.....
We couldnt adjust to the changing of the rules.
People like YOU BM dont understand that this is a different set of rules.... its a different era....
Players like Lance have no real position in modern day football.. not for 400k.. not for 300k....

We do not collectively have the balls to do this properly.
Were doing it in half measures because were too afraid to go through pain.
The club is gutless.. by the club i mean EVERYBODY.. including us.

The way im reading things right now.. we have more than a decade at the bottom because we are too worried about finances.
Its a chicken and the egg scenario.
The board cant wait to not be a cellar dweller.. so they will do everything in their power to get us to 10th... so our $ situation does not fall away...

What they dont understand bnecause they are bean counters and yesterdays men.. is that a club will not rise off field as long as it has an average list.
Nobody wants to spend money to see mediocre everyone wants to see an exciting side.

If Lance is a better prospect than Fev because Fev has a big head... were in real trouble....
Lance cant sell this club.. he cant take on the Scarletts....
The board is a disgrace because it signed Fev up 3 months ago and told everyone that he is 'OUR FACE!!!'.. and then have the audacity to attempt to trade him...
Lance was publicly fried by Collo and our list was 'B- to Z'.. but we are too worried about trading a guy who is not effective to improve it.

Fev would be better off leaving our rabble and joining another club...

Make no mistake.. when this club is making things up as they go along you just know it has no plan and is a rabble.. and look forward to another 10 years of nothingness.

Pagan isnt gutless.. he stands up for those he wants... its the board that are gutless because theyre struck with FEAR!!!!... paralysed...

I want to see them make changes..... no changes means gutless!!!!!

Lance wont kick 50 goals in 19 games next year.. Lance wont sell jumpers...Lance wont give the club a profile./...

Make no mistake this is the very lowest ebb this club has ever been in and were playing favourites and being Mr Nice Guys because too many people around the club have no perception where were at!!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Are they trying to trade him, or are they giving him a message about the expectations and responsibilities his big contract carries?



So if Pagan as head coach has the group of coaches he wants, isn't the club doing the right thing? I don't know whether DP is the right man for the job, but if he's there for another 3 years surely he has to call the shots re the coaching group. So are the board gutless for appointing Pagan for three years and giving him the coaches he wants? I'm confused

No theyre trying to trade him....

And no the club is not doing the right thing.

A football list is revised at the end of the year on performace... ACCOUNTABILITY

A football dept is also revised at the end of the season... ACCOUNTABILITY...


Now listen carefuly this is one of my pet hates.....

Sticks is on the MC and the board.. so how the hell is going to not have a clash of interest????

And how can we have changes on the footy list but not the coaching staff????

Someone needs to grow a backbone!!!!

The world does not revolve around Tony Elshaug and Tony Liberatore alone....

There are OTHERS.. who might be able to bring something different thats beneficial to this footy club through the doors with them!!!

If we make a mistake i dont mind.. as long as we change...

If we make a mistake because we are unable to change.. i have a real beef with that...

ITS WEAK!!!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

It's not about making the coach comfortable, it's about making sure he doesn't feel his position is undermined. Say Pagan said to the board I want to keep Lance and Fev and the coaches have my full support, the board would not be intellignet if they said well, Lance and Fev can stay but only if they meet these conditions and 2 of your 3 assistants are gone. Pagan is the man that has to run his football management & on field team, a man of his standing has to have a decent say in their make - up, if he doesn't - why have him there? It's a give and take situation.

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Blue is the colour, Blue is our colourful conversation, football is the game, talking carlton is our aim, we're all together, we're all together, winning is our aim, arguing is a pain, let's debate for gain. .. .!

Undermined???

A 60 year old man with a three year contract?????

Thats PARANOIA!!!!....

Either these guys are developing the kids and making the changes to go forward or theyre not!!!

Which is it????

As a regular observer of training over the last few years.. im bored.... im bored of Trouts voice and monotonous methods.
He is flat and the players look flat!!!!


The change should have been made no matter what Denis wants/ thinks....

You must reinvent yourself constantly in this world..

Especially when everybody else is....

This club is too conservative!!!... too scared to make the changes...

Three years for Trout is long enough considering our position on the ladder.

Pagan needs fresh people around him....

The players need it..

And i sure as hell want to see it...!!!!!

Enough head nodders .. we need go doers!!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I think a lot of us are confused and agree with Synbad that there seems no overall plan to get us back to the top......the Fev, Lance, Campo, and Lappin trade/contract drama's have worn thin with me and i wish someone could start making some decisions...are the football dept, administration and board working together or do they all have different plans.?...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Settle down would you? I'm with Vintage - this should be Denis' call.

Lynch mobs are terrific fun but this is no time for one.

I'm no Libba fan but if Denis wants him then I can go with that. Who knows what any given assistant coach contributes?

What does Elshaugh do that makes Denis want him? I reckon only those in the coaches box could answer that.

Surely one of the roles of the assistant coaches is that they "assist" the coach? If the coach believes he needs a particular person as his right hand man then he should have him.

If I had a personal assistant and someone from the board came and told me I'd have to have someone they've appointed I'd be ropable. How in the @#$%&! can a coach have full trust in an appointment when his confidant has been axed to make room for him?

It's one thing to criticize the performances of players who aren't performing but how can anyone but the absolute inner sanctum know how an assistant coach is performing?

Or is this just about "perception" again?

Three years of Trout is long enough.
Denis has a multi million dollar contract for 3 years.
He cannot just keep Trout cos he wants to....

Everybody needs to be assessed individualy....not because theyre joined at the hip to someone else at this club.....

I dare you to go sit through 3 years of Trouts training routines.....

Bloody disgrace!!!!


As for assisting the coach.. yes they are meant to be doing that.... but there needs to be some kind of progress or the assistant isnt assisting and the coach becomes too narrow minded...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

It's still Denis' call.

If Elshaugh's training routines aren't up to scratch then that's a management issue for the head coach.

I reckon after three years thats enough settling and its time for some doing as well....is anyone prepared to accept some responsibility down at the club for our position?....its not about lynch mobs thats for no hopers like Richmond etc..but you cant continue going along the same path and getting nowhere...we have to start making changes and trying new staff and new ideas...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

No its not... thats why they had a review on Tuesday night.
Ultimately the board draw up the direction of the footy club....

Thats part of what the review was all about.

Pagan would have stated his case to the board about keeping Trout and Libba...

But ultimately its up to the board to assess the performance of the group as a whole and make the necessary changes if it believes it should....

Where were at , at the moment.. changes needed to be made...

Its becoming too chummy and comfy for a shithouse club.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Really Synbad,

It's about the political reality of the relationship between Ian Collins and Denis Pagan. Who knows what Denis has asked for and what conditions Collo has placed on his recommendations. I have my mail from a reliable source, so by that I say Denis needs to be given ground.

Should Denis have been signed for 3 years? Probably not.
Did Fev need to be signed to a 3 year contract? Most definitely or he would have just walked with minimal, if any, compensation to our club.
Should Sticks be on the board and the match committee? No, I agree with you.

Decisions on hiring and firing off field staff made in 2005 are not going to shape the club for the long term future. Set the ground rules now, make a modicum of tough decisions and continue to do so over the next three years until we have the fresh slate you and most of us are looking for. The club can't make wholesale changes now, it's destabilising for the young players and come the end of 2006 when we're most likely down the bottom again, the media and opponents to the board would be saying our changes are failing and be calling for blood. You can have a taste of blood, but you can't have a bucket load, because you'll end up having a bucket load at the end of each year for the next three years.

It's a steady ship and Collo will pull up anchor to get one or two to walk the plank, but not the six or seven you're calling for.

_________________
Blue is the colour, Blue is our colourful conversation, football is the game, talking carlton is our aim, we're all together, we're all together, winning is our aim, arguing is a pain, let's debate for gain. .. .!

I would love there to be changes to the coaching group. None of the assistants seem to inspire anything, no-one seems to have any strategies. Swans won a semi and grand final with a set play at a ball up near goal. I don't know if any of our coaches have heard of set plays. But having committed to DP for 3 more years, we have to let him call the coaching shots. Otherwise we'll end up with a lame duck coach. I'm not convinced with our decision to sign him up but we have and history suggests that coaches who have assistants foisted on them go nowhere. Schwabby may not have been a great coach, but he sure as hell wasn't helped by Parkin's appointment to assist him. Same with Wayne Brittain - not sure about his coaching but hamstrung by not being able to choose his own people. I'm all for change and many people taking responsibilty for the mess we're in. But the board have decided DP is the man and have to let him control the coaching side. Although maybe the compromise is to add a coach or two, particularly a smart recently retired player.

I think if you sack the guys the coach wants, then sack the coach as well. Otherwise keep him and let him sink or swim on his decisions

...and was obviously quite convincing.

I really reckon this is a non-issue.

I was under the impression that it was our coaching staff that were responsible for getting the worst list in years to 10th spot.

Now they're the fall guys?

Our list is shit.

If there's a problem with training drills you can fix that without axing people.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't be accountable just that the head coach should have responsibility for hiring and firing those who work under him. If he wants them at the moment he should have them.

Most of us think we're a bit of a rabble right now but replacing the head coach's support staff against his wishes is a perfect recipe for a full scale shitfight within the club and right at the moment that's about the last thing we need.

79 vintage.. thats why were not going anywhere.
No direction!!!

Thats why Hawthorn get GOOD PUBLICITY through the media and we get shithouse publicity.

Nothing ever happens at Carlton....
Nothing ever changes....

Weve been slipping for ten years and we will continue to slip.... but remember.. the further we slip the further back we have to come...

Rocking the Boat???

What boat????... its a blow up dinky!!!!

But we think its SS Enterprise....

Were slowly slipping into the black abyss..because we have no idea what to do and how to change things.


You cannot have a coach that will not answer to the board...
You cannot have a board that cant stand up to a coach....

Its about checks and balances..

Thats why clubs are structured ....



What im asking for is not too radical...its common sense.
Denis is a paid professional and he cannot use the word 'confidante' in keeping another paid professional at the club ...

Thats the word rich homosexuals use to describe a partner who also has a job with them......

There is no room for a 'confidante' at a footy club that is answerable to tens of thousands of members...

SORRY.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Change, simply for the sake of change, is ridiculous.

If we change assistants, rather than adding to those that we have, will this result in a better outcome next year?

The Board has given Denis the authority to coach the club for 3 years. It has faith in him and if he believes that he has the right people around him to carry out the club's short & long term plans then the board would be hard pressed to override that given the faith it has in him.

You either believe in Denis and the direction he is taking the team or you don't. The board clearly do as they extended his contract.

If people are bored regularly watching training drills - don't go.

Ask the players whether they are bored? Are the drills/sessions all that different to other clubs?

If training is ineffective, then surely the blame must rest with Denis & changes should be made.

Changes should only ever be made where deficiencies are identified or where better outcomes can be achieved via the change. However, simply making changes to appease people and to appear to be doing something is fraught with danger.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

Well the deficiencies the club has is it has not really developed as a footy club.. so i would say there needs to be change ....and thats not just for the sake of it.
For the sake of changing means were travelling well but we changed for the sake of it.....

PS i have a problem with seeing Jordon Russell.. (pick 9 last year).. spend the whole season as a tagging back pocket for starters.

Thats not imaginative.
I have a problem seeing Walker not given the odd game as an attcking forward...

I have a problem sitting through our training drills OR....

I believe the club lacks imagination!!!!!!!!

And [part of the assistants jobs is to be imaginative.....

As for blaming Denis.. we just signed him up for 3 years.. what do you do with Denis???

What you can do though is introduce fresh ideas around him....

Some of you people just dont understand change to improve...

There is only so long you can be lost in the woods before you die of exposure....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synbad,

I'm not having a go at you nor am I saying that the club doesn't need changes in certain/many areas.

I'm simply stating that the board has shown faith in Denis and having done so it surely must be heavily influenced by his view of the assistants. If he believes that changes aren't required and he can clearly demonstrate why that is the case, then the board would have great difficulty making a change.

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

Exactly right. If the board sees a problem they should attempt to fix it NOW not in 3 years time.