Mick has a lot ahead of him

99prelim · **Joined:** Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm **Posts:** 3561

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

Big Kahuna Boot wrote:

..
..aside from Rucks, our KPPs fwd and back are thin, despite the actual numbers.. ..Jamo is proven, but fragile.. ..ditto Waite, who's also old.. ..other than Hendo, there's definate question marks on the others being able to do more play a season or two.. ..and even if they prove reliable year in and year out, they're still 'kids' in terms of development and experience.. ..hence why we're still a few years away.. ..ignoring our need to draft KPPs until we're forced to, has our list balance totally out of whack..

Look back at the draft threads. Most of the posters here were saying we needed more midfielders. :lol:

The idea of rebuilding is farcical. We had the opportunity to start this year and did Jack shit. In fact, Malthouse said he was happy with our list as it was. Suddenly after one poor performance, people want to rebuild.
Lets try playing to our strengths, keep a healthy list and the results will come. Age wise, our list is just starting to get to its ideal window.

Most of the list cloggers were under contract, otherwise I'm sure we would've seen more casualties.

Who are these list cloggers?

Joseph, Collins, Davies, Curnow aren't taking us anywhere.

You're right with 3 out of that 4. Collins is better than the other three combined. All he needs is game time cause he'll iron out his decision making errors. I just hope MM can see it. The boy CAN play,

ERNIE SOS · **Posted:** Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:55 pm

Ratten 5 years of coaching has also been our poorest 5years of drafting

cimm1979 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:56 pm

ERNIE SOS wrote:

Ratten 5 years of coaching has also been our poorest 5years of drafting

Did you miss the 5-7 years before that?

ERNIE SOS · **Posted:** Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:03 pm

cimm1979 wrote:

ERNIE SOS wrote:

Ratten 5 years of coaching has also been our poorest 5years of drafting

Did you miss the 5-7 years before that?

At least Pagan drafted few that go alright

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 17959

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

Big Kahuna Boot wrote:

..
..aside from Rucks, our KPPs fwd and back are thin, despite the actual numbers.. ..Jamo is proven, but fragile.. ..ditto Waite, who's also old.. ..other than Hendo, there's definate question marks on the others being able to do more play a season or two.. ..and even if they prove reliable year in and year out, they're still 'kids' in terms of development and experience.. ..hence why we're still a few years away.. ..ignoring our need to draft KPPs until we're forced to, has our list balance totally out of whack..

Look back at the draft threads. Most of the posters here were saying we needed more midfielders. :lol:

The idea of rebuilding is farcical. We had the opportunity to start this year and did Jack shit. In fact, Malthouse said he was happy with our list as it was. Suddenly after one poor performance, people want to rebuild.
Lets try playing to our strengths, keep a healthy list and the results will come. Age wise, our list is just starting to get to its ideal window.

Most of the list cloggers were under contract, otherwise I'm sure we would've seen more casualties.

Who are these list cloggers?

Joseph, Collins, Davies, Curnow aren't taking us anywhere.

You'd better tell Mick. He had 2 of the 4 in our best 22 this week or last.

The Normal One · **Joined:** Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm **Posts:** 20076

Blue Vain wrote:

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

[quote="Big Kahuna Boot"]..
..aside from Rucks, our KPPs fwd and back are thin, despite the actual numbers.. ..Jamo is proven, but fragile.. ..ditto Waite, who's also old.. ..other than Hendo, there's definate question marks on the others being able to do more play a season or two.. ..and even if they prove reliable year in and year out, they're still 'kids' in terms of development and experience.. ..hence why we're still a few years away.. ..ignoring our need to draft KPPs until we're forced to, has our list balance totally out of whack..

Look back at the draft threads. Most of the posters here were saying we needed more midfielders. :lol:

The idea of rebuilding is farcical. We had the opportunity to start this year and did Jack shit. In fact, Malthouse said he was happy with our list as it was. Suddenly after one poor performance, people want to rebuild.
Lets try playing to our strengths, keep a healthy list and the results will come. Age wise, our list is just starting to get to its ideal window.

Most of the list cloggers were under contract, otherwise I'm sure we would've seen more casualties.

Who are these list cloggers?

Joseph, Collins, Davies, Curnow aren't taking us anywhere.

You'd better tell Mick. He had 2 of the 4 in our best 22 this week or last.[/quote]

That's because it's a clean slate for all who made the chop. Won't change anything come the end of year.

Big Kahuna Boot · **Posted:** Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:10 pm

Stefchook wrote:

Big Kahuna Boot wrote:

ignoring our need to draft KPPs until we're forced to, has our list balance totally out of whack

I agree with this. Although I guess in the club's defence, we did draft Kennedy who'd be pretty handy right now (I wonder whether we needed to play tougher in the Judd trade). Also we did get in Hendo. I can see why Ratts moved Hendo back to try and win a few extra games. But from a list point of view, we really need Hendo developing as a KPF.

..yes to kennedy, but that was way back in '05.. ..and as good as he plays, i'm cool with the judd/kennedy trade.. ..but as soon as that trade was made, we needed to be looking for KPF quality to replace him with.. ....that was the last time we drafted a KPF early on, which while not an exact science does improve the odds considerably that they'll turn out a quality player.. ..yes we got Hendo in [fortune out of misfortune really], and in his 1st season he looked good for such a young CHF, and he went pick 8 in the krooz draft.. ..good odds, and he's proven himself to be a capable KPP.. ....and i can see why we went Watson the following year, but then we get in a potential future KPD, and a few years later he's still developing and Hendo's playing down back.. ..and we still don't go after a KPF, unless it's a late pick or rookie speculative..

..we think we're farther along the path than we are, it's my only understanding of why we don't go after quality kpps [thinking what we have is enough quality], and likewise why we go after flair flankers instead of core players..

Stefchook · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am **Posts:** 8131

I agree. If we weren't going to try and draft another one in the first couple of rounds of the draft, we should have had a back up plan to trade or pick someone up via free agency. Quentin Lynch is no one's idea of a gun, but would have been useful support for a couple of years to the younger/developing/speculative types we have.

grrofunger · **Posted:** Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:25 am

Lynch got arrogant and greedy - not worth what pies paid in the end

Princes Park Whistler · **Posted:** Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:32 am

grrofunger wrote:

Lynch got arrogant and greedy - not worth what pies paid in the end

He`s a dud anyway. Having said that he will have a field day today in typical Carlton style.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 17959

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

King Kenny wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

Who are these list cloggers?

Joseph, Collins, Davies, Curnow aren't taking us anywhere.

You'd better tell Mick. He had 2 of the 4 in our best 22 this week or last.

That's because it's a clean slate for all who made the chop. Won't change anything come the end of year.

No worries. We didnt rebuild because the nominated list cloggers are under contract......however theres no list cloggers as its a clean slate. :thumbsup:

camel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:58 am

ERNIE SOS wrote:

cimm1979 wrote:

ERNIE SOS wrote:

Ratten 5 years of coaching has also been our poorest 5years of drafting

Did you miss the 5-7 years before that?

At least Pagan drafted few that go alright

And what about all the years before Pagan.

Our unwillingness to accept and use the draft properly hurt us more than losing Goddard/Wells etc. Those penalties merely amplified the club's own ineptitude and gave it something to hide behind.

Unfortunately, up until the Murphy era, I'd be surprised if you could find another club that had used the draft as woefully as us.

Bigredisback · **Joined:** Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:12 pm **Posts:** 942

We need to offer one of these up and coming key fwds at gws or gc 600k a season and make the offer to good to refuse

The Rhino · **Joined:** Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 pm **Posts:** 6923

I really don't get this "We need to sign __________" attitude. Especially those we have to trade for outside of free agency.

It's the whole sum of the transaction that's important, not the gain that matters with trading. If anything, I reckon the Judd trade is as good an example of it as any. Got one of the greatest players of the modern era, a Brownlow, etc. Still paid millions and two good kids for him. No flag to show for it.

The Henderson/Lucas trade is the best trade that this club has ever made, and we fell into it largely by luck.

Charlie Dixon is fast becoming the best young KPP prospect in the country. I'd rather a lesser player if it means a better deal, and not trying to compete in an arms race against the bigger clubs, that we appear less and less likely to be able to compete legally with, as the gap widens.

Bigredisback · **Joined:** Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:12 pm **Posts:** 942

Without Judd we wouldn't have played a final his drafting is and was a master stroke

The Rhino · **Joined:** Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 pm **Posts:** 6923

You're saying that between 2002 to 2013 we would not have played a final without Judd?

Law of averages says that's highly unlikely. I mean, sure, Richmond are the exception to that rule, but....yeahnah, pointless to speculate, given that one finals win hardly makes or breaks the deal does it?

redback · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm **Posts:** 2644

cimm1979 wrote:

A flag would be nice, but I won't ever fall into the trap of thinking a coach is good or bad based on premierships wins. All they can do is improve your chances.

Too many variables. Lethal takes the job at Carlton instead of Pagan, how many flags would he have won.?

Lyon taking that very, very ordinary Saints side to two (or three) GF's was a fantastic performance. I reckon Freo will finish top two this year but will they be good enough to beat Collingwood, Sydney, Cats in a GF ? Tough call i reckon they would spank the Hawks.
MM taking the Pies to two GF's against Brisbane was a great effort, his best to date if you ask me, considering many over here think the WCE should have won 3 or 4 flags under him.

Cimm if we start on history and try and involve sliding doors and personal beliefs we will be here forever but just for some insight on how I feel.
I believe Matthews or someone like him at the time of Rattens appointment would have been better for us in the long run as I don’t think he was the right choice for us at the time.
If Blight was left at St Kilda they would have won a premiership and as far as I remember Collingwood was seen as having a better shot at beating the Lions in the second meeting but got closer in the first.

I don’t believe the board have sacked four coach’s including the head coach and spent over one and a half million dollars just to improve our ladder position.
We have made the finals for the last three out of five years and missed out last year because of the injuries incurred by some of our key players and their understudies.
The sad thing is that the players right or wrong lost faith in Ratten and were playing selfish and self preserved football. Malthouse has said he believes he has the players to go all the way with a tweak here and there so why shouldn’t we expect a flag in the next few years.

If Malthouse uses our strengths to his advantage and not play just a boundary line defensive game plan but incorporate one with our run and carry style play we will be half way there. He simply can'tuse his oldplan and bring it to us or we won't succeed.
The other thing is he has to combine the group and imbed some fight and pride apparently his former players love him and that is another step forward in geling a football side.
They also need to learn how to push back and stick up for and trust each other and first and foremost they have to protect and defend their leader another point that his teams are known for.
If he can’t do these things and in a hurry then it’s been a waste of an exercise and more than just a waste of time.

Synbad · **Posted:** Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:06 am

The Rhino wrote:

You're saying that between 2002 to 2013 we would not have played a final without Judd?

Law of averages says that's highly unlikely. I mean, sure, Richmond are the exception to that rule, but....yeahnah, pointless to speculate, given that one finals win hardly makes or breaks the deal does it?

I agree.

Maybe we would have been a better all round footy club without Chris Judd.
3 extra players and a club not riding his back and doing little more would have meant more work.

We havent worked hard enough to place us in a position to win flags or even flag

Big Kahuna Boot · **Posted:** Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:11 am

..the Judd deal was more than simply his on-field game.. ..and even if it was, there's plenty of games where he willed the entire team over the line.. ..how much was his greatness [plenty], and how much was a team focus reliance upon him is another question.. ..but the off-field benefits of Judd was enormous.. ..our team 'culture' was in the bin before we got him, he helped drag the club up the ladder both on field and off field..

..the issue was/is, that after getting Judd we just expected him and a few number 1's to carry everyone else for wins and flags..

..lookit us, we had Kennedy and we thought he was enough up fwd.. ..we lose him, the following year get Hendo and again, 1 is enough.. ..it's like we draft/trade in a good KPP, and we stop thinking about adding quality kpps to the list, and figure we're good, sop we'll just top up kpps later in the draft, and hope for the best..

..currently our KPF stocks are hinging upon Waite, an injury prone veteran, Bolt,, a very raw rookie, and Mitchel, a later pick that's also so far looking fragile and very 1 dimensional, so he's gonna have to be very very good on fi9eld to be of good use..

..to add to this we have Hammer, a project ruck that we're playing fwd because he's tall.. ..now i believe firmly he can be good up fwd, but less so as the main KPF, and more as a 3rd tall option playing deep.. ..and we have Rowe, a state league player that tries hard and we all wish him the best, cos he's a good news story and we're desperate for anyone to stand up, up fwd..

..and our best option up fwd, is needed down back..

The Rhino · **Joined:** Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 pm **Posts:** 6923

I think I agree with you, BKB, in summarising that the culture is still shit, it's just a different kind of shit to pre-Judd Carlton?

Mick has a lot ahead of him

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