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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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kingkerna wrote:
I think his words were 'I'm pretty pleased with the list'

What did it have to do with Ratten when he had horrible injuries last year? Still beat the pies and tigers twice though, so let's see how we measure up this week eh?

we get caught up in beating the woods don't we?
OK do we beat them they made yet another last four final and we didn't make the finals.... and lost to two teams in the bottom four. including a second year start up side.
we need to look at building blocks don't we?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Synbad wrote:
who would be more potent
setanta and Thornton or hammer and casboult/ Rowe.?


Let's see what Robert Walls thinks...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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yes but that's not the point.
doesn't mean what we have left is better or not better.

I'm pudding the question.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Serge Silvagni

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Its interesting how the first game played out..... The new game plan failed because it was not drilled into our players well enough. A good coach worked out the predictable malthouse/ collingwood/ carlton implementation game plan, and planned.
He found a game plan that worked against us. It may not have worked against a malthouse collingwood that would have had the benefit of many years of drilling the game plan. But it worked against us. It was made much easier due to their midfield dominance. Richmonds midfield cotchin, martyn,tuck, deledio are elite. They gave their team the first use of the ball at clearances and allowed the planned strategy against us to work. Would it work against a carlton setup under mm that had had the benefit of a settled structure, more time to be drilled, more instinctiveness? Debatable. But it worked round one.
Go back to pagans philosophy.... Develop the game plan, and stick to it. Play it better than the opposition can counter it. It worked with north it didnt work with us. But we didnt have the cattle. Same with mm. Collingwood were predictable but were able to execute better than the opposition could counter. Why? Because he stuck to a strategy. He recruited and developed players specifically for his predictable game plan. He had all those years of development behind him to give him a pool of talent that was specialised in his game plan. Opposition teams did not recruit, train, develop, drill to counter collingwood specifically. They had 15 other game plans to worry about as well and had to counter them with their players and game plans. Again, mm stuck to his belief about his game plan, executed it very well, and the opposition werent good enough to counter it effectively. Not too different to the pagan philosophy at north.

Fast forward to round one again. The execution of the mm game plan, was not good enough, or more accurately we didnt play it as well as richmond was able to counter it. A good opposition coach with a great midfield outplayed us.
But then the game plan changed at half time.
The well coached, schooled richmond team were found wanting. They had streamlined their response to our game plan so well, that once it changed, they were found wanting. They had put their faith in competing against the mm game plan so much, that their structures werent able to cope with the post half time carlton.
And here is my point. The modern day game has become so strategic that we need to realise that there are different rules applying to coaching.
The pool of ex players all wanting a chance to coach is ever expanding. The money is there now to keep quality people/potential senior coaches, in the game. Consequently there are a lot of great coaches going around. More than ever before. Its just not that easy to counter the opposition coach. They are all good. They are all strategic.
Malthouse , i think realises that we have the cattle,but they are a different herd to the collingwood herd. Today you have to execute your game plan better than the opposition can counter. Mm has lost his advantage , the team isnt yet specialised/ honed into his game plan, so it becomes much more difficult for it to succeed, especially considering it is well known, and malthouse is a first year coach with the group, and the opposition have a greater experience in countering it with their playing groups. Recognition of this leads to the realisation that mm needs a few alternative plans to allow the group time to assimilate what it is that he is trying to do, and still achieve some modicum of success. Pagan was on the same track i believe , but was simply shafted by lack of cattle.
Rnd 1 showed us all how important it is to be able to execute your game plan, by winning the clearances. The first use of the ball allows the team to implement in a more concerted, less rushed way. Your structures are much more likely to work if you can find time and space. So it must start here, at the clearances. Clearances are game plan independant. We got smashed by a superior midfield in the first half. Which made our game plan look far more ineffectual than it might otherwise have. Mm has to sort this out quickly. Our rucks are getting tap outs but not to advantage. Is this the rucks problem, or is it that our midfield is being out bodied? Either way it has to be solved quickly. When we get the clearances we have shown that we can be competitive. We can implement our game plans. Without the clearances we cant implement anything other than react to the opposition. This will slow down our development . Its ridiculous to think that we let jacobs go in order to keep hampson, kreuzer, warnock, and yet none of these three can find a way to give our talented midfield first use.
Once our midfield gets its act together, i think we can expect to see some real signs that the mm effect is working. It may not happen every week, but it needs to start showing signs and soon. I hope Wiley was the correct choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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The Unicorn Is On The grass

or was that lunatic?
I'm never quite sure.
ever since that party.

Anyway..we'll still win.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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It's safe to assume Thornton and Setanta were not going to get better and would have declined.

The way to go is Rowe and Casboult, at least as prospects.

The problem of now occurred when our only decent KPP prospect was traded for Judd, and no others were recruited or traded for in place. Maybe they thought Waite would last forever. Maybe they thought Hampson or Kreuzer was a bonafide KPF.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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teknodeejay wrote:
It's safe to assume Thornton and Setanta were not going to get better and would have declined.

The way to go is Rowe and Casboult, at least as prospects.

The problem of now occurred when our only decent KPP prospect was traded for Judd, and no others were recruited or traded for in place. Maybe they thought Waite would last forever. Maybe they thought Hampson or Kreuzer was a bonafide KPF.


You forgot about Henderson but he is being used elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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good post padre, I'll read it when you put paragraphs in

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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padre wrote:
Its interesting how the first game played out..... The new game plan failed because it was not drilled into our players well enough. A good coach worked out the predictable malthouse/ collingwood/ carlton implementation game plan, and planned.

He found a game plan that worked against us. It may not have worked against a malthouse collingwood that would have had the benefit of many years of drilling the game plan. But it worked against us. It was made much easier due to their midfield dominance. Richmonds midfield cotchin, martyn,tuck, deledio are elite. They gave their team the first use of the ball at clearances and allowed the planned strategy against us to work. Would it work against a carlton setup under mm that had had the benefit of a settled structure, more time to be drilled, more instinctiveness? Debatable. But it worked round one.

Go back to pagans philosophy.... Develop the game plan, and stick to it. Play it better than the opposition can counter it. It worked with north it didnt work with us. But we didnt have the cattle. Same with mm. Collingwood were predictable but were able to execute better than the opposition could counter. Why? Because he stuck to a strategy. He recruited and developed players specifically for his predictable game plan. He had all those years of development behind him to give him a pool of talent that was specialised in his game plan.

Opposition teams did not recruit, train, develop, drill to counter collingwood specifically. They had 15 other game plans to worry about as well and had to counter them with their players and game plans. Again, mm stuck to his belief about his game plan, executed it very well, and the opposition werent good enough to counter it effectively. Not too different to the pagan philosophy at north.

Fast forward to round one again. The execution of the mm game plan, was not good enough, or more accurately we didnt play it as well as richmond was able to counter it. A good opposition coach with a great midfield outplayed us. But then the game plan changed at half time.

The well coached, schooled richmond team were found wanting. They had streamlined their response to our game plan so well, that once it changed, they were found wanting. They had put their faith in competing against the mm game plan so much, that their structures werent able to cope with the post half time carlton. And here is my point. The modern day game has become so strategic that we need to realise that there are different rules applying to coaching.

The pool of ex players all wanting a chance to coach is ever expanding. The money is there now to keep quality people/potential senior coaches, in the game. Consequently there are a lot of great coaches going around. More than ever before. Its just not that easy to counter the opposition coach. They are all good. They are all strategic.

Malthouse , i think realises that we have the cattle,but they are a different herd to the collingwood herd. Today you have to execute your game plan better than the opposition can counter. Mm has lost his advantage , the team isnt yet specialised/ honed into his game plan, so it becomes much more difficult for it to succeed, especially considering it is well known, and malthouse is a first year coach with the group, and the opposition have a greater experience in countering it with their playing groups. Recognition of this leads to the realisation that mm needs a few alternative plans to allow the group time to assimilate what it is that he is trying to do, and still achieve some modicum of success. Pagan was on the same track i believe , but was simply shafted by lack of cattle.

Rnd 1 showed us all how important it is to be able to execute your game plan, by winning the clearances. The first use of the ball allows the team to implement in a more concerted, less rushed way. Your structures are much more likely to work if you can find time and space. So it must start here, at the clearances. Clearances are game plan independant. We got smashed by a superior midfield in the first half. Which made our game plan look far more ineffectual than it might otherwise have. Mm has to sort this out quickly. Our rucks are getting tap outs but not to advantage. Is this the rucks problem, or is it that our midfield is being out bodied? Either way it has to be solved quickly.

When we get the clearances we have shown that we can be competitive. We can implement our game plans. Without the clearances we cant implement anything other than react to the opposition. This will slow down our development . Its ridiculous to think that we let jacobs go in order to keep hampson, kreuzer, warnock, and yet none of these three can find a way to give our talented midfield first use.

Once our midfield gets its act together, i think we can expect to see some real signs that the mm effect is working. It may not happen every week, but it needs to start showing signs and soon. I hope Wiley was the correct choice.

:thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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You can talk game plans all you want. Fact is that the 2nd quarter cost us, and during that quarter, Richmond continually waltzed out of the centre square with the ball. As long as footy is played, this simple stat (centre clearances) will win or lose matches for teams. Had nothing to do with where our defenders or forwards were stationed or how we moved the ball. We couldn’t get the ball. The remainder of the game, we won on the scoreboard.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Yep!

First quarter we started well. From halfway through the first to halftime we went to water. Then the 2nd half we dominated, and really they were only kept in it because of some shitty free kicks and 50 metre penalties.

Our own discipline was the culprit throughout the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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And this is where we have truly struggled in recent years. Our playing group, midfielders in particular, have had a very fickle on/off switch and seem to try to get by on good quarters or purple patches during the game, but otherwise sit back and expect someone else to do the hard stuff for them.

When we are not 100 percent switched on in the middle we invariably get smashed. Yes the players have great responsibility for this flaw, but it is the coach's job to ensure that the players are going out there switched on mentally for the entire game.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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all this talk of gameplans is garbage

there are what 18 teams in the league?

a good coach should at minimum have 34 game plans

thats minimum 2 strategies/gameplans to beat each of the other 17 teams.

you cant play the same format each game - and no club does.

we need to focus on toughness around the stoppages and our centre bounce setups rather than an old fashioned principle of one (or micks) gameplan

the spotlight should be on our players lack of physical and mental toughness

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:54 pm 
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John Nicholls

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grrofunger wrote:
all this talk of gameplans is garbage

there are what 18 teams in the league?

a good coach should at minimum have 34 game plans

thats minimum 2 strategies/gameplans to beat each of the other 17 teams.

you cant play the same format each game - and no club does.

we need to focus on toughness around the stoppages and our centre bounce setups rather than an old fashioned principle of one (or micks) gameplan

the spotlight should be on our players lack of physical and mental toughness


Hey that is the opposite to what i said in another thread but kind of the same.

Still the point is throwing out a the defensive minded game style being drummed into a team all summer in favour of a shootout is a bit lame. Malthouse said it himself.

A bit of hardness, some tactics and leadership could have halted the tigers run on at the 5 min mark of the 2nd quarter. Neutralise then slowly wrestle back momentum.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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i wonder if malthouse at half time threw his hands in the air and went

" you know what guys @#$%&! it, my plan isnt working - remember that ratten guy and his plan - go out and play like that and lets get back in the game - forget everything we did all preseason - go out and run - hurrah ! "

i highly doubt it.

i think the players took on some 'poetic licence' and free wheeled -

I think Micks comments in the presser and media afterwards about the shootout not being his style etc - are a veiled dig at the playing group and him reminding them who is boss.

I would be disappointed if Mick at half time and during this week hasn't been tearing shreds off our pansies for being so soft and lame at the contests

the rest is media puff speak

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:22 pm 
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John Nicholls

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grrofunger wrote:
i wonder if malthouse at half time threw his hands in the air and went

" you know what guys !@#$%& it, my plan isnt working - remember that ratten guy and his plan - go out and play like that and lets get back in the game - forget everything we did all preseason - go out and run - hurrah ! "

i highly doubt it.

i think the players took on some 'poetic licence' and free wheeled -

I think Micks comments in the presser and media afterwards about the shootout not being his style etc - are a veiled dig at the playing group and him reminding them who is boss.

I would be disappointed if Mick at half time and during this week hasn't been tearing shreds off our pansies for being so soft and lame at the contests

the rest is media puff speak


Lost the playing group? :lol:

He has said they (the coaches) did some stuff so i doubt the players came up with the plan in the pre 3rd quarter huddle.

Maybe he said "do it the old way then. cant wait to see how that goes" ........and then was made to look like an idiot when it got better results. :grin: I don't believe that for a minute but its a nice counter scenario to yours.

Lets just hope he comes up with decent gamestyle that is robust and sticks with it from here on in or we are going nowhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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yeah a nice one - or 30 odd :razz:

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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kingkerna wrote:
good post padre, I'll read it when you put paragraphs in


Worth the read kk.
I think you'll enjoy it.

Well said padre.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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bluegirl72 wrote:
The Unicorn Is On The grass

or was that lunatic?
I'm never quite sure.
ever since that party.

Anyway..we'll still win.


Definitely lunatic.

Funny you should bring that up. I was remembering that song this morning thinking back to a night spent on a verandah at the base of the Cathedral Range with a couple of mates about 20 years ago.

We were playing Dark Side on repeat (tape deck!) and had a debate for about 20 minutes (whilst listening to it) as to whether Brain Damage was going slower than usual.

Which is impressive considering it's only a 3:48 song.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:00 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Not sure the old bloke who's Mick's mate is going to get us tougher at stoppages and give us a tactical advantage there. Ling should've been given a blank cheque.


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