I'm sorry, but that's absolutely ridiculous. Did you know the average AFL salaray in 2012 is $227K?

I know $750K to a million sounds like a ridiculous amount of money. And it is. But every AFL player earns a ridiculous amount of money. And gun players all the more so. Even Collingwood knows that Cloke is worth around $700K. And if you want to get a gun player from another club, you always have to pay overs.

And regardless of whether he's in peak form or not. Or whether you like his dad (and his moustache). Or his tattoos. Or his brother. Or whatever. He's clearly one of the best players in the competition playing in the most difficult position. I mean lots of people complain about the contract we gave Waite. One of the reasons we did was because it's so hard to find genuinely good key position forwards. And because recent premiership teams always have at least one.

2011 - Geelong - Hawkins (Podsiadly)
2010 - Collingwood - Cloke (Dawes)
2009 - Geelong - Mooney (Hawkins)
2008 - Hawthorn - Franklin, Roughead
2007 - Geelong - Mooney (Ottens)
2006 - West Coast - the most obvious aberration (Lynch)
2005 - Sydney - Hall
2004 - Port Adelaide - Tredrea
2001-2003 - Brown, Lynch, Bradshaw

Now I've loved what I've seen from Casboult as much as anyone. And I'm a huge fan of Waite. But when I look at our crop of Waite, Casboult, Hampson and Mitchell, I don't see an obvious big gun forward.

None of this means we should get him. Or even that we can get him. But can we actually discuss the pros and cons in a sensible manner?

I agree with all this, but understand I'm in the minority. I found that out pretty quick in the Talking Recruitment thread, but understand people's reservations enough to not try and argue the point and change people's minds.

A few things should be taken into consideration in the discussion. First as Synbad mentioned, the 5mil figure is just the media's speculation. If a suitable third party deal can be done then it is not going to chew up as much of the cap as people think.

McKay is not an idiot. Lets for once just assume that he knows more about our TPP situation for the next 5 years, and it's simply just doing the 80's Carlton thing.

It's not initially costing picks and players, but understand the worry that it may do down the track. If it was trade week, and we had a chance to force him to the pre-season draft to "pick him up for nothing" then many would be pushing for it.

Dont judge him on 2012 form. If the fact is that he walked, and the playing group are aware of this then it has to have an affect on all parties involved. 'Supposedly' he was confronted at a players only training situation and informed him of the decision the day that Collingwood then 'put off all talks until the end of the year'.

Getting Cloke IMO would assist rather than hold back the development of Casboult, Rowe and Mitchell. I know I haven't seen as much of these guys at lower levels than a lot of you, but I just dont see the Tom Hawkins comparison considering that many suggested that if it wasn't for f/s he would have been a genuine Top 5 pick in an open draft and was always going to make it one day.

Clokes durability is a huge positive considering the flakiness of our talls.

Salary Cap increases over the next 5 years. People worry about how much 1 player chews up, but in reality how much did Warnock, Waite, Bower, Russell, Thornton, Ellard, Joseph etc take up in 2012 for very little return?

Isn't it about balance and the whole package? Surely delisting mature age 'list cloggers' and replacing them with Cloke + drafting/trading 6-7 18-21 year old's isn't short term thinking or old school Carlton...

Dont know if the goals per game average is the best indicator either. He plays CHF. In his best years (under Malthouse BTW) he was a hard working, power forward who used to work his opponents into the ground by offering that lead up marking option that then allowed a deep ball in the hot areas, rather than our shallow or wide forward 50 entries.

How much impact he has on then allowing Waite/Cas/Mitchell to be the second forward, Henderson to stay back, Walker to play 3rd, Betts to stop being the go to target, Hampson/Kreuzer to play as more of a rotating resting ruck/forward then the main KPP etc cant be simply measured in goals per game statistics.

Even so if one of ours forwards ever became the best contested marker in the league and 'only' kicked 50 goals in a year we'd probably name a stand after them! Remember the Coleman is barely going to hit 60+

As for the old man it's the last serious contract he signs, so we'll deal with that when goes on the veterans list

It's a good debate, and you can pick apart the points I've made. At the end of the day no-one is going to change the other parties mind it's that disagrees, just that I think as Stefchook says it deserves more than just a "piss of he's a hack" kind of debate.

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely ridiculous. Did you know the average AFL salaray in 2012 is $227K?

I know $750K to a million sounds like a ridiculous amount of money. And it is. But every AFL player earns a ridiculous amount of money. And gun players all the more so. Even Collingwood knows that Cloke is worth around $700K. And if you want to get a gun player from another club, you always have to pay overs.

And regardless of whether he's in peak form or not. Or whether you like his dad (and his moustache). Or his tattoos. Or his brother. Or whatever. He's clearly one of the best players in the competition playing in the most difficult position. I mean lots of people complain about the contract we gave Waite. One of the reasons we did was because it's so hard to find genuinely good key position forwards. And because recent premiership teams always have at least one.

2011 - Geelong - Hawkins (Podsiadly)
2010 - Collingwood - Cloke (Dawes)
2009 - Geelong - Mooney (Hawkins)
2008 - Hawthorn - Franklin, Roughead
2007 - Geelong - Mooney (Ottens)
2006 - West Coast - the most obvious aberration (Lynch)
2005 - Sydney - Hall
2004 - Port Adelaide - Tredrea
2001-2003 - Brown, Lynch, Bradshaw

Now I've loved what I've seen from Casboult as much as anyone. And I'm a huge fan of Waite. But when I look at our crop of Waite, Casboult, Hampson and Mitchell, I don't see an obvious big gun forward.

None of this means we should get him. Or even that we can get him. But can we actually discuss the pros and cons in a sensible manner?

Brad Hardie (yes yes I know) on 6PR stating Carlton are now SERIOUS about Cloke and are looking at ways to fit him in under the salary cap which includes trading out players.

The two being discussed are Walker and Gibbs, both would go.

cough cough *** bullsh1t*** cough

Voted no. Goddard would be a better get for us.

Voted no. Goddard would be a better get for us.

I agree with all this, but understand I'm in the minority. I found that out pretty quick in the Talking Recruitment thread, but understand people's reservations enough to not try and argue the point and change people's minds.

A few things should be taken into consideration in the discussion. First as Synbad mentioned, the 5mil figure is just the media's speculation. If a suitable third party deal can be done then it is not going to chew up as much of the cap as people think.

McKay is not an idiot. Lets for once just assume that he knows more about our TPP situation for the next 5 years, and it's simply not just doing the 80's Carlton thing.

It's not initially costing picks and players, but understand the worry that it may do down the track. If it was trade week, and we had a chance to force him to the pre-season draft to "pick him up for nothing" then many would be pushing for it.

Dont judge him on 2012 form. If the fact is that he walked, and the playing group are aware of this then it has to have an affect on all parties involved. 'Supposedly' he was confronted at a players only training situation and informed him of the decision the day that Collingwood then 'put off all talks until the end of the year'.

Getting Cloke IMO would assist rather than hold back the development of Casboult, Rowe and Mitchell. I know I haven't seen as much of these guys at lower levels than a lot of you, but I just dont see the Tom Hawkins comparison considering that many suggested that if it wasn't for f/s he would have been a genuine Top 5 pick in an open draft and was always going to make it one day.

Clokes durability is a huge positive considering the flakiness of our talls.

Salary Cap increases over the next 5 years. People worry about how much 1 player chews up, but in reality how much did Warnock, Waite, Bower, Russell, Thornton, Ellard, Joseph etc take up in 2012 for very little return?

Isn't it about balance and the whole package? Surely delisting mature age 'list cloggers' and replacing them with Cloke + drafting/trading 6-7 18-21 year old's isn't short term thinking or old school Carlton...

Dont know if the goals per game average is the best indicator either. He plays CHF. In his best years (under Malthouse BTW) he was a hard working, power forward who used to work his opponents into the ground by offering that lead up marking option that then allowed a deep ball in the hot areas, rather than our shallow or wide forward 50 entries.

How much impact he has on then allowing Waite/Cas/Mitchell to be the second forward, Henderson to stay back, Walker to play 3rd, Betts to stop being the go to target, Hampson/Kreuzer to play as more of a rotating resting ruck/forward then the main KPP etc cant be simply measured in goals per game statistics.

Even so if one of ours forwards ever became the best contested marker in the league and 'only' kicked 50 goals in a year we'd probably name a stand after them! Remember the Coleman is barely going to hit 60+

As for the old man it's the last serious contract he signs, so we'll deal with that when goes on the veterans list

It's a good debate, and you can pick apart the points I've made. At the end of the day no-one is going to change the other parties mind that disagrees, just that I think as Stefchook says it deserves more than just a "piss of he's a hack" kind of debate.

It's a fantastic post but if we already have people having convulsions over the fact we gave Waite 3 years for half what Cloke costs.

If Geelong is the benchmark of handling a list then maybe we should listen to Brian Cook.

Today he stated NOT ONE player on the list is on more than $600k.

Makes ya think.

The one they offered that to pissed off to the Gold Coast...

Hawkins is still young.

He might be the next one to break the $600k mark.

Wouldn't mind Jimmy Bartel for $600 or less...

Voted no. Goddard would be a better get for us.

It's a fantastic post but if we already have people having convulsions over the fact we gave Waite 3 years for half what Cloke costs.

If Geelong is the benchmark of handling a list then maybe we should listen to Brian Cook.

Today he stated NOT ONE player on the list is on more than $600k.

Makes ya think.

Not so much anymore but I can see the Cats problem.

Old stars still think they are stars and even if their skill or pace diminish how do you tell them their pay will drop accordingly.?