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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:56 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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bluechucky wrote:
I hope they offer Ratts an extension.


To his house as a farewell gift?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:59 am 
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redback wrote:
Paul Roos’s very methodical and unemotional criteria of how the board should assess Ratten’s position for next year.
Some key points were:
How far up the ladder should we have finished with our best 22?
To assess the team’s performance based on personnel at the coach’s disposal?
If we win the last two games we finish with 13 wins, 1 less than last year.
The board should look at the last five years at a whole.
Factors would be player development, management style, player leadership and the most important is the team better off than when he took over.
The final decision is can he take them to a premiership?
In his view the board will not replace Ratten if it makes a rational assessment on his tenure at the club.


IMO that is what it is all about. Simple!

There is a MASSIVE difference between coaching a team to finals than coaching them to a Premiership. It is just so much harder and you have to be so much better.

If there is a decision to be made that has to be the criteria.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:59 am 
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Craig Bradley
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ThePsychologist wrote:

C'mon GWS you know that Ratten will be re-appointed by Sticks because "he is the best man for the job and has the player's support"! :wink:


EFA


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:00 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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bluechucky wrote:
I hope they offer Ratts an extension.

They would require cahunas....but yeah if they truly believe he will take the team to a flag they should illustrate that belief by backing him all the way....otherwise they are just hedging which is just crap decision making....

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:06 am 
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formerly cj69

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Braithy wrote:
ThePsychologist wrote:

C'mon GWS you know that Ratten will be re-appointed by Sticks because "he is the best man for the job and has the player's support"! :wink:


EFA


Is this fraud?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:07 am 
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Craig Bradley
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ThePsychologist wrote:
Braithy wrote:
ThePsychologist wrote:

C'mon GWS you know that Ratten will be re-appointed by Sticks because "he is the best man for the job and has the player's support"! :wink:


EFA


Is this fraud?


depends how seriously you take a forum board, I s'pose?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:13 am 
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Geoff Southby

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Braithy wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, I think that's exactly the mindset that Bear Gleeson will take into the 'review'. it's the new Carlton way.



Sometimes there is no deeper answer or long winded conspiracy.

Look historically -- since the AFL -- at teams with long injury lists for a season. It's inversely proportionate to their success.

Even you gotta admit, if Ratten eeks out 13 wins -- only one less than last year -- with this injury toll, it's far from a shithouse effort deserving of getting the sack over.


We have differing standards and expectations for our senior coach.

You are happy to reward a 'far from shithouse' effort with more years.

I'm wanting to see the club do whatever is necessary to put together a coaching team capable of taking this group to a flag.

In 5 years of observation, I dont think Ratten has it in him. And I don't want us to be keeping a guy around just because he's alright at his job. Organisations that do that tend to get alright results.

Ratts is alright. Just alright. And we all know deep down that if he played for another club, he'd never have got the gig at Carlton. And if we ditch him, he wont get a senior gig anywhere else. He's Matthew Knights levels of just alright.

Some people treat him like you treat family... Where you're stuck with him for life so you just shrug your shoulders and make the best of it. Like Sticks as president really. He's mediocre... But he's OUR mediocre, so we 'stick fat'.

Terrible way to view your executive management.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:29 am 
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formerly cj69

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Braithy wrote:
depends how seriously you take a forum board, I s'pose?


Some things I do some I don't. Misrepresentation especially in my field is very very serious.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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And why wouldn't you? It's very serious business we're all dealing with in here.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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ThePsychologist wrote:
redback wrote:
Paul Roos’s very methodical and unemotional criteria of how the board should assess Ratten’s position for next year.
Some key points were:
How far up the ladder should we have finished with our best 22?
To assess the team’s performance based on personnel at the coach’s disposal?
If we win the last two games we finish with 13 wins, 1 less than last year.
The board should look at the last five years at a whole.
Factors would be player development, management style, player leadership and the most important is the team better off than when he took over.
The final decision is can he take them to a premiership?
In his view the board will not replace Ratten if it makes a rational assessment on his tenure at the club.


IMO that is what it is all about. Simple!

There is a MASSIVE difference between coaching a team to finals than coaching them to a Premiership. It is just so much harder and you have to be so much better.

If there is a decision to be made that has to be the criteria.

Absolutely... no one doubts that Ratten is a decent coach.

...many doubt whether he can take this group to the next stage.

How we end this season from now on will determine if Ratten coaches next year.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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ThePsychologist wrote:
Braithy wrote:
ThePsychologist wrote:

C'mon GWS you know that Ratten will be re-appointed by Sticks because "he is the best man for the job and has the player's support"! :wink:


EFA


Is this fraud?


Braithy - I generally seem to be of the same mind as you with a lot of Carlton topics, but I can't support you on this one.
It may only be an anonymous forum, but I'd be filthy if someone deliberately misrepresented something I'd written.

What do you think mods? I'm not suggesting any action retrospectively but if it's not a policy then perhaps it should be.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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ThePsychologist wrote:
redback wrote:
Paul Roos’s very methodical and unemotional criteria of how the board should assess Ratten’s position for next year.
Some key points were:
How far up the ladder should we have finished with our best 22?
To assess the team’s performance based on personnel at the coach’s disposal?
If we win the last two games we finish with 13 wins, 1 less than last year.
The board should look at the last five years at a whole.
Factors would be player development, management style, player leadership and the most important is the team better off than when he took over.
The final decision is can he take them to a premiership?
In his view the board will not replace Ratten if it makes a rational assessment on his tenure at the club.


IMO that is what it is all about. Simple!

There is a MASSIVE difference between coaching a team to finals than coaching them to a Premiership. It is just so much harder and you have to be so much better.

If there is a decision to be made that has to be the criteria.


I'm not so sure about the implications of this though pysch. Malthouse took the Pies to two failed GF's and lost a few prelims before he finally jagged a
flag with them, (and that after a draw). Ignoring for a moment his flags at WC, prior to 2010 it would have been very easy to make such a statement
about Malthouse -- that he was a very good coach but just didn't have it in him to win a flag. Similar to Bomber. Do you think that Ross Lyon and
Eade haven't got it in them but Chris Scott has because he scored a flag in his first year?

I don't know mate. I think that you make some very interesting points about Rattens game plan, (even though we disagree on his retention for 2013).
I guess the only way we can say for sure that someone's "got it" is if they actually get that flag.

Alright then Ratts - how 'bout it please! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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If Ratts wins two finals he has achieved the minimum,,,, if he doesnt we went backwards.

If we make the finals whats the excuse to not finish top 4????


If he doesnt he didnt achieve the minimum

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Geoff Southby

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BigKev wrote:
ThePsychologist wrote:
redback wrote:
Paul Roos’s very methodical and unemotional criteria of how the board should assess Ratten’s position for next year.
Some key points were:
How far up the ladder should we have finished with our best 22?
To assess the team’s performance based on personnel at the coach’s disposal?
If we win the last two games we finish with 13 wins, 1 less than last year.
The board should look at the last five years at a whole.
Factors would be player development, management style, player leadership and the most important is the team better off than when he took over.
The final decision is can he take them to a premiership?
In his view the board will not replace Ratten if it makes a rational assessment on his tenure at the club.


IMO that is what it is all about. Simple!

There is a MASSIVE difference between coaching a team to finals than coaching them to a Premiership. It is just so much harder and you have to be so much better.

If there is a decision to be made that has to be the criteria.


I'm not so sure about the implications of this though pysch. Malthouse took the Pies to two failed GF's and lost a few prelims before he finally jagged a
flag with them, (and that after a draw). Ignoring for a moment his flags at WC, prior to 2010 it would have been very easy to make such a statement
about Malthouse -- that he was a very good coach but just didn't have it in him to win a flag. Similar to Bomber. Do you think that Ross Lyon and
Eade haven't got it in them but Chris Scott has because he scored a flag in his first year?

I don't know mate. I think that you make some very interesting points about Rattens game plan, (even though we disagree on his retention for 2013).
I guess the only way we can say for sure that someone's "got it" is if they actually get that flag.

Alright then Ratts - how 'bout it please! :wink:


Trouble is, you can't 'ignore' Malthouse's two flags at WC. He got leeway at Collingwood because he had already proven he had what it took to take a team all the way. Not to mention taking a fairly ordinary collection of Collingwood players to 2 GF's early in his term. Runs on the board, where Ratts really has none... all he's managed to do so far is carry a team along a reasonably natural progression curve, given he inherited it at the end of a rebuild.

None of us is Bear Gleeson and Sticks Kernahan, so we get no say in this... And we're not in board meetings with them, so we don't know how the club really rates Ratts.

And can anyone say with 100% certainty a coach who hasn't got to the top yet has what it takes? Maybe not, but I also think it's pretty easy to spot the ones with the personal attributes up that are likely to stand them in good stead.

Of the unproven ones, IMO Brad Scott and Buckley impress me greatly. Their personalities seem well attuned to success in what is a crazily difficult profession, and I'd be surprised if they both don't do very well.

Ratten, over 5 years, has consistently demonstrated a personality that seems I'll-suited to success as a senior AFL coach. He presents as unsure of himself, he vacillates, he shifts position too often, he delivers mixed messages to the public, he doesn't inspire confidence that he has confidence in himself and in his methods.

And unless there are two very different Brett Rattens (one for the public and one for the club) You'd have to think the players would pick up on this too. Everyone trying to do something great in an organisation wants and needs a strong leader to take them there.

In short, Brad Scott and Nathan Buckley present as leaders. Brett Ratten doesn't. I think he has the wrong personality to lead a club... And make no mistake, the senior coach's job now is to be The Man at the club. He sets the tone, he leads the way. Ratts is more your 'yeah this week is probably sort of a bit of a line in the sand kind of game, maybe' kinda guy.

If I gambled, I'd be prepared to put a thousand down on Ratten never winning a flag. If he does, it'll be as a very atypical coach.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Synbad wrote:
If Ratts wins two finals he has achieved the minimum,,,, if he doesnt we went backwards.

If we make the finals whats the excuse to not finish top 4????


If he doesnt he didnt achieve the minimum


Two finals wins with the injuries we've had and he's the messiah in my book.

And he's a chance to do so too.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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I see Roos thinks Ratten should stay as well.

There is another one...starting to mount boys.

Roonists will be going to ground shortly :grin:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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bluechucky wrote:
Synbad wrote:
If Ratts wins two finals he has achieved the minimum,,,, if he doesnt we went backwards.

If we make the finals whats the excuse to not finish top 4????


If he doesnt he didnt achieve the minimum


Two finals wins with the injuries we've had and he's the messiah in my book.

And he's a chance to do so too.

Ok so we meant to get into the top 4 if we dont have any injuries whatsover??

who are our injuries now???

No more than anyone else... or anyone else is likely to have...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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baz_baz wrote:
I see Roos thinks Ratten should stay as well.

There is another one...starting to mount boys.

Roonists will be going to ground shortly :grin:



does he say ratts is a very good coach??? :lol:

actually none does... do they????

does anyone say they rate ratts as a great coach???

fine me one quote

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Synbad wrote:
If Ratts wins two finals he has achieved the minimum,,,, if he doesnt we went backwards.

If we make the finals whats the excuse to not finish top 4????


If he doesnt he didnt achieve the minimum




Tend to agree with this. I'll wait until we're done to decide. If we make the finals & are missing only Hendo & Laidler from our best side then injuries can't be seen as a factor.

One thing I'm noticing though, people are talking up our late season 5 wins from 7 a bit much. I reckon of the lot only the Collingwood win was really impressive. The Dogs game was just terrible, terrible footy against a shit opponent. Tigers game marginally better & let's face it we won by a bee's dick. Lions game another poor opponent who kicked badly. Then the Dons who admittedly we smashed but are shockingly down on form & played 3 unfit players.

Anyway, not a huge Ratten fan but I'll see what the side can do in the finals if things fall our way & we make it.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Synbad wrote:
bluechucky wrote:
Synbad wrote:
If Ratts wins two finals he has achieved the minimum,,,, if he doesnt we went backwards.

If we make the finals whats the excuse to not finish top 4????


If he doesnt he didnt achieve the minimum


Two finals wins with the injuries we've had and he's the messiah in my book.

And he's a chance to do so too.

Ok so we meant to get into the top 4 if we dont have any injuries whatsover??

who are our injuries now???

No more than anyone else... or anyone else is likely to have...


Henderson, Jamison, Hampson, Laidler< Warnock, Watson

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