Though I lean towards moving Ratts on at the end of the season, I am not 100% decided (as I am only looking in from the outside).

In the end I think the decision comes down to the answer to a single question, "Can Ratts coach us to a premiership?".

If the answer to that question is No then there is no reason to keep him for one more season.

_________________
Carlton - Nothing's changed
I still love you, oh, I still love you
Only slightly, only slightly less
Than I used to, my love

Agreed.

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I hope Essendon* folds.

While I'm a fence sitter on this one, I think the most glaring thing is that the board ratified Ratten last year (maybe too soon?) to a 2 year deal.

Part of me says they should have the guts to see him through the 2 years they backed him with last year. The first year didn't work out so well. Maybe that's everyone's fault at the club. The coach, the pre-season plan, the "top 4 or bust", the players who didn't put in when it was required, the MC and their structures or lack thereof, the fitness staff... but they backed him with 2, and he deserves to prove the 1st year was an anomaly.

The other part says I just want success any which way. There's no guarantee that lies away from Ratten, either.

If the review suggests that a lot of decisions Ratten made caused the mid-season disruption among staff, playing group, etc then he should be accountable. If those decisions were a group decision, or a conflict of opinion, then Ratten isn't the one to wholly blame for that.

Most importantly, if the players believe in the guidance of Ratten and that they can deliver success under his plan, then that probably says the most over anything, doesn't it?

It makes your head hurt.

I think Ratts can win us a flag. Good enough tactically to do that. Then again, I don't overrate the role of match day coach, and think Alan Joyce or Bill Hayden's drovers dog could do it if given the opportunity.

I'm more concerned about whether he can leave the place in a good enough state for whoever takes over to guide us toward 18 or 19. The fall out with Icke over the recruitment of McLean, our record on draft day with philosophies that have stretched toward downright bizarre at times (perhaps rectified with Rogers taking over), bizarre interest in Melbourne retreads, lack of interest in developing the list ahead of coaching for wins and an above average rate of players requesting a trade come end of year over the past 3 seasons doesn't fill me with hope in this regard.

A lot of this probably can't be the fault of Ratten solely, or even directly. I'm sure names like Hughes, Riley, Kernahan, Swann can take their fair share of blame for these as well. Is Ratts strong enough a personality to tell these types to butt out? I don't think so.

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?

I'm confident in Ratten. You can't escape the facts that we'll finish with 13 wins with a deplorable injury count costing us more man games than any season of recent memory. Would MM have won so many games?

Ratten doing that. It's starting to become a great feat of coaching.

2013. If the target is a reasonably healthy list and a top 4 finish, go close or prevail in a prelim final. imo, that's about where we are as a team. We're missing a big bodied KPD essential for winning a flag, imo. So, I don't think we're premiership material as constructed. We don't bat as deep in the midfield as Hawthorn, Geelong, Collingwood, either.

I'm maybe more confident in Ratten, than a guy Eddie Maguire canned, then threw out there as a perfect replacement for the team he hates the most? Makes me wonder, at least.

One aspect of all of this that we all must agree on, you know being CFC supporters and all. Winning a premiership with Ratten would be far sweeter than winning one with Malthouse?

But Synners. Here's a question for you.

Will Malthouse win us a Flag? I mean why sack ratten and hire him if he can't guarantee a flag? Right?

Why not replace ratten with another coach who isn't 59-years old, and been questioned that he no longer can keep up with the game?

Who's not assessing him? The difference is in the criteria used to make the assessment.

The "he should go" camp generally seem to be saying he's had five years; we have no flags in that time ... that's long enough. When challenged that Malthouse, Thompson and Thomas, (I'm not kidding), didn't have one in that time either they talk about grand final and preliminary final appearances. Or they mention Clarkson. The basic argument is that these guys took equivalent lists and did a lot better.

My "he should stay" argument is based on two things. Firstly none of those people took over lists any where near as bad as Carltons. I've based this on wins over the previous six seasons, (see an earlier post for comparisons with MM). I don't think that ladder position for the previous two or three years tells the true story

Secondly and most simply, Rattens win/loss record for his first five years is superior to all these so called super coaches for the equivalent period in their careers. Given his starting point I think that this is to be commended.

Personally I think that the problem here is that too many of us are used to instant success at Carlton. Win us flags or we'll get someone who will. Times have changed and we need to change too. Chequebook premierships are history.

+1.

This is the most frustrating aspect of the debate. Old school thinking about a new, modern game. You can't buy flags anymore

The irony is -- and not to single you out Synners, but I will -- you are the loudest detractor of the current board. Yet it's their very philosophy of win now or your gone that you are aligning yourself with, when you want ratten fired.

The only way you build to a flag is with time, hard work and patience.

Ratten is bloody close. The closest we've been in over a decade.

How the @#$%&! do you call 8th/9th close?

Uncomprimising in pursuit of sustained success. This is how Carlton has always been. "Uncomprimising in pursuit of sustained success" is our promise to each other - Board, Executive, Staff, Players, Coaches, Sponsors and Supporters. There is a single minded belief in that promise... - Carlton Football Club, Strategic Plan 2011-2015

Obviously with our injury count, 13 wins is looking more and more like a monumental effort.

I can't see any other AFL team being capable of matching our output this season under the same circumstances.

But 13 wins is 1 less than last year.....

_________________
when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

Feelgood Hit of the Winter - GHRP-2, GHRP-6, CJC-1295, AOD-9604, Humanofort and Hexarelin

Aside from West Coast and Collingwood … and until the weekend Essendon* were doing better too.

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You actually believe that ?

Does anyone know what a Director of Coaching actually does?

Even when Rocket and Bomber are asked to describe their job in AFL360 they skirt around the issue. To me it seems like a job created to give blokes a pay cheque who want to stay in footy, but can't be arsed taking on the responsibility of senior coach.

If someone (hopefully a club official, haha) comes up with a clear and unambiguous definition of what is to be expected from a DoC and Malthouse was judged to be the best candidate, following an interview process, then more power to him and the club.

But if it's a case of appointing Mick and creating a job to accommodate him, well, that's just a disaster waiting to happen.

And, once again...

SAY NO TO CLOKE!

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Oh, I've never been an advocate of Malthouse and only Malthouse as our next coach. In fact I've never really been totally committed to moving Ratts on, although I've certainly understood and agreed with many of the points made by those wanting Ratten gone.

So, if the board decides to flick Ratts, I'd hope a genuine search for a suitable coach is employed.

But I don't have a lot of faith that that would be the case and therefore we'd more than likely end up going around in circles in a year or three. Awesome!

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Apples to oranges. We lost 6 or 7 of our best 10 players for prolonged periods.

Our 3 best defenders for most of the season have been missing or in Jamo's case hobbled.

Murphy, Carrots for 8 weeks and Judd, Simpson for four.

Throw in Waite and Walker and Warnock and this point our losses far exceed what any other club has gone through as far the personnel left on the field and what become of our structures.

The team we rolled out against the dogs and tigers was easily far worse than WCE or the Pies' worst team they've ran out this year.

Judd made a comment recently about how their whole structure revolves around Waite being able to take a contested mark or at the minimum create a contest. It allows them to spread quickly, get players behind the ball and get out running. Not many teams can take us down when we're out running with numbers behind the ball.

Now sure, can the strategy and Ratten for coming up with a plan revolving around one man, with no real legitimate back up man should Waite go down. But when Waite is in the side, we're a 5-10 goal better team it seems.

Also. No surprise we've been a much better team since Casboult provided what Hampson, Knackers and Kreuz can't when they're up forward.

You guys are funny. Sure argue against me.

But what do you say to Parkin when he pretty much echoes the same thing I've been saying for a few weeks?








Can we at least agree David Parkin might have a bit more of a clue and inside info than some of the keyboard maestros here?



http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/4311/newsid/145261/default.aspx

David Parkin?
He coached Ratts and is his confidente.

Youre not serious are you???

Look.. i know this is hard for you to comprehend.. but if these people think Ratts os the right person to coach us going forward.. and he is a better coach now than he was last year....they should be calling for him to be baced with another season bolted onto his contract.
Risky move is it???

Why?
Hes better now than when he got his last extension.

Cruelled by injuries

The truth is noone after over 110 games of AFL coaching is convinced.. and theyre all happy to give him another year with a wait and see.

The fact is a huge % of our list has not known another coach and have no clue about any other coac hing methodology.
The fact is we dont have a fingerprint gameplan that defines what we do as extraordinary to what other teams do.
The fact remains that there is scant leadership and player mettle.
And the fact remains we have been unable to beat any quality side in a ding dong fight to the death game ...

We just cruise.. we have our good days we have out bad days...all brought together with a bunch of excuses.

The fact is we have won 1 elimination final in 5 seasons of footy.
The fact is not many are convinced that Ratts can take us forwars and allow us to join the elite teams in the comp.

You might be happy with that... i dunno....

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David Parkin who is a representative for the Australian Football Coaches association?
Hardly an independent view.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Wouldn't matter if we had that draw this year. Unless we played Collingwood, we have lost to every other side in the eight, and don't say Freo as we'll finish above them.


Oh and we lost to Port!

Parkin knows more about coaching and what it requires than anyone here. I hardly think he'd be endorsing Ratten, if he knew he was going to fail.



I don't know why, and you never answered my previous question. Why does Ratten need an extension this off season? He still has one season of football on his contract. Let him play that out. If we comfortable in the top four come August next year, extend him. If we're not revise at the season's end.

Your logic makes no sense. Why do something, we don't need to?



How would we know what Ratten's 2012 structure and gameplan was when he never had the cattle to run it? And the times this year we have had a reasonably healthy list, we beat collingwood by 10 goals and Essendon* by 96pts.



I thought we fought Richmond well to the end. Another game where nobody inside all of footy and its media gave us a hpe in hell of even being competitive in.



Seems like a nothing comment. Judd, our best & one of the most decorated players in the comp, has said Ratten is the hardest working coach, and the most open to learning he's seen. All these guys in our team have played footy their entire lives. They'd know a shit coach when they saw one.



You cling desperately to this notion. My recollection was Ratten said himself he wasn't ready for an AFL head coaching gig. His first 3 years were spent spinning his wheels with a wooden spoon list while learning on the job. His last two seasons have improved steadily.

Ratten has improved and could maybe be the most improved coach in the comp. He could conceivably keep improving and take us to join the elite teams. He deserves to finish his contract based on the diabolical injury list to key players.

The only hard thing to comprehend here, is in the face of Ratten's improvement and a league wide recognition of this -- Walls, Eade, Bomber, Robinson, Parkin, Judd, Murphy etc etc -- is you continue to look away from this present and keep dredging up the past.

People get better at things. Fact.