tbf, I am talking about winning percentage (%) of games. Ratten is higher than Malthouse & Bomber. He's also higher than about 60 coaches over the last 3 decades. Malthouse won a flag, yes. But in 10 seasons, he only got 1. It's plausible, Ratten can equal or better that.

Also ... not enough recognition is given to just what an abysmal state of affairs the club was in when Ratten took over. His first 3 seasons were pushing shit up hill with VFL calibre players only getting a gig because of our draft pick & finances situation from the black years.

5 years for Ratten, given the first 3 were with a sub AFL list isn't much time to turn a list and a losing culture into a flag contending team, imo. Ratten walked into a job setup for failure, and fail he did until last season where he & the list over achieved to be less than one straight kick from a prelim final.

This year has been thwarted by an injury toll which would make, the Scott brothers, Bomber, MM, Alan Jeans and Parkin himself struggle to be at .500 on the year. And yet here's Ratten staring down at 13 wins.

It's quite unbelievable. The team which ran out against the Bulldogs is about the worst on paper I've seen since I started following us in '79.

His first 3 seasons were pushing shit up hill with VFL calibre players only getting a gig because of our draft pick & finances situation from the black years.

What VFL calibre players were getting a run in 2009?

Anyone give much weight to this rumor: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/rumour-file-9.955589/page-63#post-25308634

Basically: Malthouse to be director of coaching, Ratts to stay head coach and Cloke is ours.

Bower, Wiggins, Cloke, JR, Joseph and Thornton all played in the 2009 Elimination Final

Hard to think that any of them would get picked tomorrow for an EF.

Bower before the run of injuries of 2010 was well on his way - Synbad often recounts that story about Ratts saying he'd "definitely" be an All-Australian.

We've struggled for a decent medium sized lead up forward, Wiggins would certainly be in the mix.

Cloke played 10 games in 2009, and the other 3 have all consistently been named on extended benches or as emergencies the past few weeks and are only an injury or two away from being seriously considered.

Hardly Merrington - Eccles - Gallagher stuff, but have to admire your consistency just the same...

Not so sure that assumption would stand up to close scutiny though. We scored 3 * #1 picks in a row before Ratten took over, (permanently). Any of those clubs on your list match that record you think?

You'd surely know by now after 5 years whether he's the coach to take us forward or not ?

I like how you conveniently forget Clarkson in the 5 year comparison. How does Ratten's best finish in 5 years compare with Clarkson, MM @ Collingwood circa 2000, and Grant Thomas ? I pick these 3 coaches as their list situation was roughly similar to what Ratten inherited. Clarkson won a premiership in year 4, MM lost a close grand final, even Grant Thomas the butt of many jokes for his lack of coaching skills had St K in a PF or two (IIRC).

Bower, Wiggins, Cloke, JR, Joseph and Thornton all played in the 2009 Elimination Final

Hard to think that any of them would get picked tomorrow for an EF.

OK, so we have a situation where throughout AFL/VFL history, the only coach who has had a mediocre first hundred games and then gone on to turn it around to premiership success is seemingly Bomber Thompson (none of your other examples were right, there may be others but none of us can think of them). The pattern that keeps repeating is that the most successful coaches are those who show definite signs of their coaching prowess early on in their careers.

So there's a lot of history to suggest that Ratten won't succeed. One anomaly in Bomber Thompson is what people keep clinging to (If I had a buck for every time I've heard "Geelong wanted to sack Thompson and look what happened there...").

Ultimately, you're saying that Ratten has had such incredibly extenuating circumstances, that he'll defy history and do it where so many others have failed.

I don't buy that myself. I understand that he took on a club at the bottom, but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as when Pagan got it. Ratten got the club just as it was primed to rise... he'd tanked his way to our 3rd No.1 pick and got Judd...

You make it sound like Ratten got the poisoned chalice. It wasn't that bad.

5 years in, and the guy is still 'learning'. We had injuries this year, sure. But he also made the call to play 3 ruckmen in an era where every other club realised that was crazy. By his own admission, guys like Casboult wouldn't have got near the senior team if we hadn't had injuries. People like Robert Walls are defending him, saying he's better now than he was in March.

Seriously, Ratten's development bell curve is shaped more like a pancake than a bell. At this rate, it'll be a decade before you'd be confident enough to say he'd finally got his shit together as a senior coach.

Ultimately, you think he'll defy history and come good. I don't. I doubt we'll ever agree, which is fair enough.

Anyone give much weight to this rumor: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/rumour-file-9.955589/page-63#post-25308634

Basically: Malthouse to be director of coaching, Ratts to stay head coach and Cloke is ours.

OK, so we have a situation where throughout AFL/VFL history, the only coach who has had a mediocre first hundred games and then gone on to turn it around to premiership success is seemingly Bomber Thompson (none of your other examples were right, there may be others but none of us can think of them). The pattern that keeps repeating is that the most successful coaches are those who show definite signs of their coaching prowess early on in their careers.

So there's a lot of history to suggest that Ratten won't succeed. One anomaly in Bomber Thompson is what people keep clinging to (If I had a buck for every time I've heard "Geelong wanted to sack Thompson and look what happened there...").

Ultimately, you're saying that Ratten has had such incredibly extenuating circumstances, that he'll defy history and do it where so many others have failed.

I don't buy that myself. I understand that he took on a club at the bottom, but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as when Pagan got it. Ratten got the club just as it was primed to rise... he'd tanked his way to our 3rd No.1 pick and got Judd...

You make it sound like Ratten got the poisoned chalice. It wasn't that bad.

5 years in, and the guy is still 'learning'. We had injuries this year, sure. But he also made the call to play 3 ruckmen in an era where every other club realised that was crazy. By his own admission, guys like Casboult wouldn't have got near the senior team if we hadn't had injuries. People like Robert Walls are defending him, saying he's better now than he was in March.

Seriously, Ratten's development bell curve is shaped more like a pancake than a bell. At this rate, it'll be a decade before you'd be confident enough to say he'd finally got his shit together as a senior coach.

Ultimately, you think he'll defy history and come good. I don't. I doubt we'll ever agree, which is fair enough.

.......Not a Ratten fan then John? I think you're rewriting history a bit though mate. I don't think that we ever actually played three rucks. We played three blokes whose best position was in the ruck - true. What we did though was try to make one or two of them key position forwards. Didn't really work, but what choice did he have? I seem to remember at the time neither Casboult or Waite were anywhere near being available. In fairness Hammer showed a little bit of promise, but personally I think his future is not as a pure KPP. Thorton? Tried him and he did a few good things, but not outstanding. Bower? Looked lost in the forward line to me. Henderson of course was holding the backline together. Walks missed games. Who else ... Watson? Doesn't look ready for that role ... not yet anyway. Mitchell ... injured. Sam Rowe ... injured. Have I missed anyone?

So what would you have done? Eddie's brilliant overhead, but he needs at least one tall around him. Who would you have put up there?