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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:11 pm 
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formerly cj69

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mikkey wrote:
Blue Boots wrote:
Which ruckmen did we have on our list when we selected Kreuzer back in the 07 draft?



Good context here. Need to take timeline etc. into account. We were in real strife in this area and everybody knew he was good on the ball too. So the issue is: was it smart to recruit Warnock? Probably not, but they wanted a more experienced player as Jacobs and Kreuzer were very young Hampson a "project".


Does it change anything?

Lets say we got Cotchin and gave up a pick in the 30s that draft for Mumford or a Hudson? We were lacking and they were ready to step up?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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Blue Boots wrote:
Which ruckmen did we have on our list when we selected Kreuzer back in the 07 draft?
Hampson and Jacobs had just finished their first years on the list.

Can anyone imagine what the reaction would've been back in 07 if Hughes had picked Cotchin because he was happy with the soccer convert and the big, slow throwback on the rookie list who'd just finished their first years? Especially after picking two mids at number 1 in the previous 2 drafts. He would've been laughed at and rightly so. In hindsight it's the right move considering Kreuzer's injuries, Jacob's development and Gibbs inability to establish himself as a midfielder but that doesn't mean it was the smart move at the time.

Also the sub rule didn't exist then either so playing 2 genuine ruckman was common and ruck depth was even more important. I know it's been mentioned before but that aspect keeps getting ignored for some reason.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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ThePsychologist wrote:
mikkey wrote:
Blue Boots wrote:
Which ruckmen did we have on our list when we selected Kreuzer back in the 07 draft?



Good context here. Need to take timeline etc. into account. We were in real strife in this area and everybody knew he was good on the ball too. So the issue is: was it smart to recruit Warnock? Probably not, but they wanted a more experienced player as Jacobs and Kreuzer were very young Hampson a "project".


Does it change anything?

Lets say we got Cotchin and gave up a pick in the 30s that draft for Mumford or a Hudson? We were lacking and they were ready to step up?
Mumford wasn't ready at all. He was rookied by the Cats that year and Hudson cost the Bulldogs 2 picks in the 30s.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Ok.
So in a nutshell. Some thought we should have taken someone other than Kreuzer and some reckon we got it right.

IMO if Kreuz was fit and firing this would not even be talked about.

Anyway, move to the Kreuzer thread where we should be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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FMD cimm youre a cry baby.
Just put me on a foe list.. and ignore me and anyone else you dont like....... :lol:
Wow! I cannot believe the amount of crying we get on here if people express what they want.
Look if i came on talking about badmington in Hong Kong you can squeal as much as you like....
This is where i express my CARLTON frustration.... dont like it.. dont read it... ignore!!!... stick on foe... i dont give a flying duck what you do....!!!
Same with ALL the little princesses on here....
mute the cat,,, castrate the dog... mop the flower floors...wash it with rosewater...

You think i agree with everyones posts or styles??... i dont complain about them like a 10 year old princess...
I read them i debate them.. i engage them or i ignore them....
Even when i dont agree with someone people i dont mind what they have to say in the OVERALL scheme of things...

Are there a weaker bunch of forum members on any forum ever...??? :screwy:

Just stick everyone on foe except people you like......!!!...

:lol:

I know its frustrating following this club ov e rthe last dpzen years... but grow a flower spine in here... its a forum!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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And there's a little Cpt Hindsight in all of us.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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ThePsychologist wrote:
I remember wanting Cotchin and getting criticised badly for it. In the end its done but I hope that we learn from it.

We now have three PURE ruckman on our list. IMO we should look at trading one for the right deal.

List Management is a key. I believe we have some talent but we fall away badly and lack depth.

The benefits of adding another gun mid to the list is huge. It creates problems for the opposition and takes pressure off the others. Add one or two quality mids to Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Carazzo and it makes a huge difference.

Lets say you could trade Hampson for Caddy? Would that improve our list? IMO heaps.

With some smart recruiting and trades we could easily be right up there in 2013! :thumbsup:


Yep, CJ69 wanted Cotchin. so did a few others.

I was in the Kreuzer camp...but I was in the Kreuzer camp the year before too because he was special, and still is.

I couldn't6 pigeon hole Kreuzer in the PURE ruckman category and never did.

He has pace, and mobility, but people have forgotten this since he's been back a bit lame from the knnee reco. Just remember all the muscle he put on in his year off...becaame too heavy. Still think he's too heavy.

I still see Kreuzer as a RR first and foremost and 2nd ruck.
I don't think we've seen the Kreuzer fit to do the job.
Till he fails to get fit and play a RR role, tyhen my advice is to not knock the idea.

I've heard the arguments against him as ruck rover, and the common one I hear is that we can have a ruck rover and rover to him and when he's finished rucking he can then become the 3rd RR in the middle. Not for me...there's no plan for him to RR and use his huge frame to shepherd for Murphy and Judd...and he can only if he taps the ball where he wants it and he lands where he will be beneficial to Judd and co. I'd rather have a plan for the boys on the floor and the rovong contingent to have a plan A, B, C etc.

Dunno what to do with Hammer and Warnock.
I feel that Hammer is better forward, but not a world beater yet.
I feel Warnock is great against Cox and Nic Nat when fit and in form see last years final.
Which one do we trade? Dunno...I want all 3 unless there's a ready made great midfielder who is surplus elsewhere then I'd consider either Hampson or Warnock for him and then draft a rookie ruckman.

So if we got rid of one of them, lets say Hampson for arguments sake, where does Warnock and Kreuzer play?
Can Kreuzer play RR, whilst Warnock is first ruck and swapping with the FF who may be a Rowe Casboult or Mitchell type?

One thing that was obvious against WB last weekend, is that we were short a ruckman, and we won because we won the clearances on an inferior outfit. We had Murphy, Carrazzo, Scotland and Gibbs with good support from McLean, Curnow, Bell...they had Boyd and Griffen...Dalhaus was mainly forward. Of course we should've won the clearances.

Now what if the opposition was Cox and Nic Nat in a final....you reckon a token ruckman like Mitchell or Casboult can handle them? What if Warnock was playing and getting hammered like last time we played them? We'll get a bath. You need 2 ruckmen against the best especially in finals because you'll need the insurance if one goes down.

Don't mess with the ruck. Don't devalue the importance. Be jealous of the great fit ruck combos going around, and lets beat them at their own game.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:37 pm 
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formerly cj69

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Cazzesman wrote:
Image

Regards Cazzesman


FFS Cazz. Cheap shots again but no comments or logic. :roll:

Also, some of you need to read. My comments were on what I would do. Not a criticism of Kruezer or his current form.

Mumford and Hudson were examples of type!!! :banghead:

Cazz, as for Hindsight, if you don't have it how do you improve going forward?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:39 pm 
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bondiblue wrote:
ThePsychologist wrote:
I remember wanting Cotchin and getting criticised badly for it. In the end its done but I hope that we learn from it.

We now have three PURE ruckman on our list. IMO we should look at trading one for the right deal.

List Management is a key. I believe we have some talent but we fall away badly and lack depth.

The benefits of adding another gun mid to the list is huge. It creates problems for the opposition and takes pressure off the others. Add one or two quality mids to Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Carazzo and it makes a huge difference.

Lets say you could trade Hampson for Caddy? Would that improve our list? IMO heaps.

With some smart recruiting and trades we could easily be right up there in 2013! :thumbsup:


Yep, CJ69 wanted Cotchin. so did a few others.

I was in the Kreuzer camp...but I was in the Kreuzer camp the year before too because he was special, and still is.

I couldn't6 pigeon hole Kreuzer in the PURE ruckman category and never did.

He has pace, and mobility, but people have forgotten this since he's been back a bit lame from the knnee reco. Just remember all the muscle he put on in his year off...becaame too heavy. Still think he's too heavy.

I still see Kreuzer as a RR first and foremost and 2nd ruck.
I don't think we've seen the Kreuzer fit to do the job.
Till he fails to get fit and play a RR role, tyhen my advice is to not knock the idea.

I've heard the arguments against him as ruck rover, and the common one I hear is that we can have a ruck rover and rover to him and when he's finished rucking he can then become the 3rd RR in the middle. Not for me...there's no plan for him to RR and use his huge frame to shepherd for Murphy and Judd...and he can only if he taps the ball where he wants it and he lands where he will be beneficial to Judd and co. I'd rather have a plan for the boys on the floor and the rovong contingent to have a plan A, B, C etc.

Dunno what to do with Hammer and Warnock.
I feel that Hammer is better forward, but not a world beater yet.
I feel Warnock is great against Cox and Nic Nat when fit and in form see last years final.
Which one do we trade? Dunno...I want all 3 unless there's a ready made great midfielder who is surplus elsewhere then I'd consider either Hampson or Warnock for him and then draft a rookie ruckman.

So if we got rid of one of them, lets say Hampson for arguments sake, where does Warnock and Kreuzer play?
Can Kreuzer play RR, whilst Warnock is first ruck and swapping with the FF who may be a Rowe Casboult or Mitchell type?

One thing that was obvious against WB last weekend, is that we were short a ruckman, and we won because we won the clearances on an inferior outfit. We had Murphy, Carrazzo, Scotland and Gibbs with good support from McLean, Curnow, Bell...they had Boyd and Griffen...Dalhaus was mainly forward. Of course we should've won the clearances.

Now what if the opposition was Cox and Nic Nat in a final....you reckon a token ruckman like Mitchell or Casboult can handle them? What if Warnock was playing and getting hammered like last time we played them? We'll get a bath. You need 2 ruckmen against the best especially in finals because you'll need the insurance if one goes down.

Don't mess with the ruck. Don't devalue the importance. Be jealous of the great fit ruck combos going around, and lets beat them at their own game.


Finally a logical argument!!

You make fair points BB and a lot would agree. I personally just have a different philosophy!

Well written. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Re the talk about drafting and Big K. I love him and think he will be a terrific player. Really tho the choice was between he and Kennedy. WCE wanted picks #1 and 3. If we had rated Kennedy as better for the team than Big K we would have gone that way, but we didn't. More perplexing is recruiting Big K and then recruiting Warnock the next year and there were a number of guys who have turned out pretty well who were available for #24 in that draft. A lot of picks won't work out I just reckon the more draft picks you have the more chance you give yourself to snag a star. So I hate it when we swap picks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Actually Synners, it's a Carlton V Doggies thread.

it seems to be you and Psych that have tanties when people ask you not to take over Every THREAD.
People are patient, but sometimes the constant harping..gets to even the most patient people.

especially when the joy is sucked out of even the smallest victory. Genuine praise for good work by players, or gee, even Ratts...which seems to be a 4 letter word now, is trashed.
People are belittled for speaking up about it.

You guys have a good case for being able to debate whatever you want about your club, but can you just contain it to the specified threads, so those who don't want to always be around it, can also enjoy themselves here? huh? please? :-)


I really miss Jimmae.
he would have blown the whistle ages ago, instead of allowing a rolling scrum.

anyway, group hug.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
FMD cimm youre a cry baby.
Just put me on a foe list.. and ignore me and anyone else you dont like....... :lol:
Wow! I cannot believe the amount of crying we get on here if people express what they want.
Look if i came on talking about badmington in Hong Kong you can squeal as much as you like....
This is where i express my CARLTON frustration.... dont like it.. dont read it... ignore!!!... stick on foe... i dont give a flying duck what you do....!!!
Same with ALL the little princesses on here....
mute the cat,,, castrate the dog... mop the flower floors...wash it with rosewater...

You think i agree with everyones posts or styles??... i dont complain about them like a 10 year old princess...
I read them i debate them.. i engage them or i ignore them....
Even when i dont agree with someone people i dont mind what they have to say in the OVERALL scheme of things...

Are there a weaker bunch of forum members on any forum ever...??? :screwy:

Just stick everyone on foe except people you like......!!!...

:lol:

I know its frustrating following this club ov e rthe last dpzen years... but grow a flower spine in here... its a forum!!!


Foe list?

There's a foe list.?

Must look into that.

Nice post though.

How about them Bulldogs eh!? Beaten by our reserves side.

Bell played pretty well I thought, given his disabilities and all.
Thought Watson looked pretty steady, waddyareckon?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Bell, Watson, Bootsma, Carrazzo. The list gets bigger by the week.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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cimm1979 wrote:
And there's a little Cpt Hindsight in all of us.


:lol: The cape isn't your size Cimm but it may fit others. :wink:

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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I have no problem with your philosophy Psych (CJ is dead...keep forgettin).
It's just a philosophy and I understand YOUR opinion.

I see where you are coming from, and will never forget the damage the mosquito fleet did as did the Judd Cousins Krerr combo, but they all fed off 1 good ruckman who stood tall and was somewhat resilient. Our rucks haven't been other than Jacobs...oops.
Give Kreuzer a break because a knee reco is rather unlucky...then there's the hip issue and Warnock...he's gotta get his body dtronger and more robust than during his first 2 footy contracts at Freo and Carlton.

There's a good argument for a 1st ruck and a back up forward ruck with the new sub rule, but I think that evolved at Collingwood because they didn't have a 1st or 2nd ruckman till Jolly came on board and (forgot the ex NM player) a pinch hitter in the ruck to give Jolly a breather. They have problems when Jolly doesn't fire and no back up.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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bluegirl72 wrote:
Actually Synners, it's a Carlton V Doggies thread.

it seems to be you and Psych that have tanties when people ask you not to take over Every THREAD.
People are patient, but sometimes the constant harping..gets to even the most patient people.

especially when the joy is sucked out of even the smallest victory. Genuine praise for good work by players, or gee, even Ratts...which seems to be a 4 letter word now, is trashed.
People are belittled for speaking up about it.

You guys have a good case for being able to debate whatever you want about your club, but can you just contain it to the specified threads, so those who don't want to always be around it, can also enjoy themselves here? huh? please? :-)


I really miss Jimmae.
he would have blown the whistle ages ago, instead of allowing a rolling scrum.

anyway, group hug.


Oh rubbish!!

The WB thread...

so whats that mean??/

coaching recruiting
development
confidence
tactics
played no part in that game????

This is where we disect how this game was played out... and games are not played out only on the footy field.. but before the game... and over the whole year...

Its called preparation.. development.. conditioning..

Im really sorry.. u look at the world through very short sighted glasses.... but it doesnt mean thats the correct way of looking at things.

/You dont believe what we do all year has any any fallout in that game.. how does a game change from pre 3/4 time to after 3/4 time??

Its called context and perspective... perception etc....

Nothing happens in isolation....

Even when you bake a cake.. you must got to the super market and get the correct ingredients..... mix it correctly and do the right things with temeprature etc.

Its a sequence.....

The game is not just a game without what happened before.....the butterfly affect...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
FMD cimm youre a cry baby.
Just put me on a foe list.. and ignore me and anyone else you dont like....... :lol:
Wow! I cannot believe the amount of crying we get on here if people express what they want.
Look if i came on talking about badmington in Hong Kong you can squeal as much as you like....
This is where i express my CARLTON frustration.... dont like it.. dont read it... ignore!!!... stick on foe... i dont give a flying duck what you do....!!!
Same with ALL the little princesses on here....
mute the cat,,, castrate the dog... mop the flower floors...wash it with rosewater...

You think i agree with everyones posts or styles??... i dont complain about them like a 10 year old princess...
I read them i debate them.. i engage them or i ignore them....
Even when i dont agree with someone people i dont mind what they have to say in the OVERALL scheme of things...

Are there a weaker bunch of forum members on any forum ever...??? :screwy:

Just stick everyone on foe except people you like......!!!...

:lol:

I know its frustrating following this club ov e rthe last dpzen years... but grow a flower spine in here... its a forum!!!


Sorry Synbad I lost track for a moment.................was this post directed at Cimm or ThePsychologist. :lol: :lol:

Just askin' cause really it could be for either/or.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:52 pm 
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formerly cj69

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Posts: 7893
bluegirl72 wrote:
Actually Synners, it's a Carlton V Doggies thread.

it seems to be you and Psych that have tanties when people ask you not to take over Every THREAD.
People are patient, but sometimes the constant harping..gets to even the most patient people.

especially when the joy is sucked out of even the smallest victory. Genuine praise for good work by players, or gee, even Ratts...which seems to be a 4 letter word now, is trashed.
People are belittled for speaking up about it.

You guys have a good case for being able to debate whatever you want about your club, but can you just contain it to the specified threads, so those who don't want to always be around it, can also enjoy themselves here? huh? please? :-)


I really miss Jimmae.
he would have blown the whistle ages ago, instead of allowing a rolling scrum.

anyway, group hug.


I give praise where its due and have a lot of time. "Tanties" as you call it are just a ridiculous comment.

It takes more than two to tango. And why is it made out its a negative? Debate is good.

Remember its the "reader" that makes the decision whether it is good or not. Its your perception.

Given some of these comments its clear that you and others have some very selective ideas as well. If you didn't there wouldn't be an argument?

As Ive said you don't have to read it. Its a choice.

Argue the points and facts but don't criticise the ability of others to comment.

Personally I enjoy every moment of it!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Just my 2 cents
Dont think Hammer will ever set the world on fire but
Kruez and warnock are both good ruckman but with more changes coming to the interchange ruckman are going to need more strings to their bow
Both these big men have to get better around the ground and both have to learn how to either play forward or back

Dont think either at this stage are much chop until they can be more flexible

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