Yeah they copped some injuries last year, but nothing compared to our injury list this year. They probably had a similar injury run last year to what we had last year (don't forget last year we had Jamison, Waite and Kreuzer missing very large portions of the year).

Ellis has only ever been an average player. I think he's injured now, but earlier in the season he couldn't even make their team, when he should be in the prime of his career. That's a terrible return for pick 3.

Well my enthusiatic writer friend and Hawks fan would like to respond to your comments, so for anyone who might be interested, here it is.
(Just call me "pig in the middle").
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When I wrote my view on Carlton, I did so because I love footy and thinking about all teams not just my own, and I think the Blues are an interesting team. Generally rated very highly at the start of the year and after an excellent start but due to many factors, injury being a key one this year, they've had a significant fall. Still is just my opinion, and its neither right nor wrong, its just an opinion.


I'm pretty sure it was when Murphy and Carrazzo went down, both for long periods, things started to unravel and really expose a lack of depth. I think the results speak for themselves, 5-1 and then 2-7 after that (including an awesome win against the Pies). More injuries in that period didn't help. But I guess that is the whole point. The depth isn't there, and that all comes down to recruiting and potentially the coaching staff getting the best out of the players who were available.


Many of you focused on my own team, Hawthorn, rather than the focus which is Carlton, so I'll give you my thoughts on the questions that were asked.


The Hawks recruiting, particularly in 2005 and 2006 was absolutely woeful. The club got themselves into an excellent position in 2005 by getting 5 picks in the top 22 and managed to pick up: 3 - Ellis - lots of skill, but no penetration in his kicking, no particularly quick, and so breakable its pathetic. I had lots of hope for him due to his poise and skills but the harsh reality is that his reputation in some parts of the footy world are off the back of an almost Norm Smith performance in 2008. Since then he has played only one full season, two half seasons and this year hasn't made an appearance due to continually breaking down.
6- Beau Dowler - deep sigh. I understand that the Hawks wanted a tall (because at that stage they didn't know if Roughy and Franklin would work out, and Croad was only getting older) but he was a dreadful pick. Played less than 20 games I think and never had a desire for the contest.
14 - Grant Brichall - has developed into a very good half back flanker.
18 - Max Bailey - three knee recos and this year a wrist. Guy can't take a trick. He was an average ruck last year when he played most of the year. I can't see him being any more than that
22 - Beau Muston - one directional attacking mid who failed, badly and was cut after only 13 games.


In 2006 it was Mitch Thorp at pick 6. He was worse than any of the others! Absolutely, complete and total spud.
Pick 24 was Brent Renouf who amazingly played in the 08 flag, but is a dinosaur style tap ruck, with poor skills and worse mobility. At least we traded him.
33 Jarryd Morton, who in the traditions of the Morton brothers was an utter waste of space.
The best pick was the one we couldn't stuff up, father and son selection Josh Kennedy, and yet, much to the pain of Hawk supporters, we let him go because we didn't want to offer him opportunity and appropriate salary. Everytime I see him play it still stings.


Oh, and we recruited Cam Bruce for godsake!


So yeah I know a fair bit about really poor recruiting. And yes, those poor choices didn't stop us winning a flag. I think its been worse and for longer at the Blues.


As for Clarkson coaching. How can I be disappointed in a small angry man who delivered a premiership? As someone said 1 in 20 years for the Hawks, so as far as I am concerned he's great. Although, 08 was a while ago so he must continue to get results. A prelim last year was good, a prelim this year necessary, but the team has to stay competitive for him to remain. 09 and 10 were utter failures (09 due to what Carlton is experiencing now, poor depth due to retirements and injuries). If you aren't interested in a coach with premiership experience, that's your choice.


As for being anti-Carlton, whilst they aren't close to my favourite team, I wasn't being particularly negative, just calling it as I saw it. If Carlton deserved praise, then I would be happy to give it, but in my opinion they aren't worthy of it.


My assessment of the Hawks (in summary): We have issues with pace in the midfield, we don't have much, certainly not much from classy players other than Rioli (who is overrated by most, still a good player but isn't consistent enough). Buddy can't kick straight and often makes poor decisions and it frustrates the hell out of me. We have no ruckman on any great ability. Hale holds his own, but doesn't damage. We have no backman at the moment capable of playing on strong stay-at-home KPP forwards. I think we are still a top 4 chance because we have some good players to come back in Guerra and Franklin (depending on how long we suspend him for for speeding) and Hodge is a bit of a wild card. If we make top4 then we've as much chance to make the flag as 3 other teams.


Oh and I tipped the Pies to beat us because I rate their midfield as much better than ours.


Onto some Carlton points:
Robinson is a solid player. He's angry, he's hard as nails, but he isn't that good. He reminds of Campbell Brown when he played for the Hawks. As a supporter I loved him and he was my favourite player, but I was under no illusions about how good he was.


Warnock has been been too injured too know if he is any good, and frankly needs to be first ruck, but as I said you play too many rucks and it costs all of them.


Jacobs was poached and you had to let him go, but he should never have been in a position to poach.


Grigg did nothing at the blues so there was no issue from the Blues in letting him go. But his emergence at Richmond raises the whole 'how was he coached at the Blues, and are they stuffing anyone else up question'.


Yarran needs more time to play half back flank. He needs more experience there. What he has is awesome dash and he does what Gibbs doesn't and actually takes the game on, but like Rioli, he needs to do more, and more regularly.


Kreuzer is slow, too slow for KPP fwd, his ruckwork is good but he doesn't win enough hit outs. Even the lauded game against the Pies I think it was, he didn't have that many hit outs, it was his clearance work that was impressive. But again, he doesn't do it enough. Yes he is young and will take more time, yes he has had injuries, but the fact is he isn't performing to the standard expected of a number 1 pick. And yeah, sorry, he could well turn into Josh Fraser. I hope not, because the AFL doesn't need another one.

Obviously an unemployed hawthorn fan as he has a lot of time on his hands

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Hmmm. Far too measured and reasonable for a true Hawks fan

... but easily the most successful club of the last 50 years.

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i don't wanna spend my life explaining myself. Either you get it, or you don't- Frank Zappa

I like the first post better, he's gone a bit soft.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

On behalf of all the non-sugarcoaters and realists here at TC I applaud your post. I agree with most of it.
The most potent points
1 Kreuzer and Gibbs. I would get slaved alive on here if I said we should have traded Gibbs this year for a key forward , another high pick or key defender. We should have whilst he had currency. Has played 120 odd games and been a disappointment in my view. Too slow , doesnt take risks and is too soft. In the games he has played midfield he has been pathetic. At 23 my patience is about run out with this bloke. Kreuzer has been badly banged up , but when we recruited him I couldnt believe how slow he was. He isnt tall enough to be ruckman too slow to be a key forward. I reckon he could be worth a try as an inside mid. People hang onto the notion that top 5 picks will inevitably come good and rip it a new one. Sadly the club doesnt want to admit they have [REDACTED] up. Scully was a @#$%&! up at Melbourne. Just a player. Sometimes number one picks dont work out. I am sure Collingwood wished it had traded Fraser when he was worth something rather than give him to the GC.

2 Our recruiting spot on here. Wayne Hughes overall I give a fail. The Warnock and McLean deals were shocking. The Judd deal might end up being a shocker as well when you consider we lost Kennedy and potentially gave up some guns in picks 3 and 20. Armfield has been ok, but like so many other players turns the ball over too much. That cost you games more than anything else the way the game is played yet we have so many shit kicks. Stood out likedogs balls when we played you blokes. Judd is nearing 30. The windows slowly shutting. We also have too many "flanker types" as Synbad has said

3 The ruck situation. We should have not gone for Warnock and we did which stamped Jacob's departure. Sums this club better than anything else. It can be so flower dumb and shortsighted. Watching Jacobs in the twos I thought this guy is going to be exactly what we need. A smart player with a big presence and the bonus was we recruited him for next to nothing. Add Broadbent from Port to the list of players we could have got with pick 24. Kreuzer not a ruckman, Hampson simply not up to it( pick 17) and Warnock is IMO a spud.
We should have kept Jacobs not gone after Warnock and recruited a rookie ruckman from the WAFL, SANFL, or VFL. Plenty of would be AFL ruckman out there. Have a look this weeks Inside Footy. The club now has egg on its face unless your totally dumb and one eyed

4 Player development. I cant remember the last time someone new came in and suprised me. Look at last night. Sheringham and Walker were terrific and made up for the loss of Pods and Bartel. We just dont seem to have any depth as you point out and backup very well. That points the bone at recruiting and player development. Personally the only interest I have in tonight's game is how Casboult and Bell go


So well done mate. Many of our supporters think people like me are just negative pricks. We arnt. We just want success, but wont get it until the arrogance of this club is removed and the focus is on what really matters. Have a look at this website and the week for the club in the media. 48 pages about a chicken wing from one of our 44 players. 46 posts on this topic with some typical dumb,arrogant, narrow-minded replys from our supporters.

Thanks for reality check
Regards Keogh

I hope you reply to this guys second post because I reckon you should. As for injuries
yep we have had injuries and we have been well and truly exposed in the areas of recruitment, trade and player development and of course coaching.

If your memory goes back a year the Hawks had plenty of injuries and were one straight one away from playing Geelong in a grannie

You arnt on the board are you?

I agree. It's time for cold hard facts. We're not a very good club, and we're going nowhere fast. Poor development, coaching and structure. A mediocre list which after get past the top 12 or so players falls away quickly. I don't even know what to make of the board and front office ... they seem to be on another planet entirely. The self interest and self indulgence which goes on in our boardroom blows my mind.

I'd like to see every single one of them go.

Also. I don't get how some people in one thread are bagging CFC all over the place for this and that -- and rightly so, but are (too?) quick to get defensive if you say something about their favourite guy on the list or construct a thread telling it how it is, like this one.

It's easy to agree with keogh and the Hawks supporter because the results speak for themselves.

I can't help feeling we have the foundation for success. We just need someone to orchestrate the group to gel and inspire each other for greatness....I don't think the game plan has allowed this...and we only have the outside running game and getting the ball to the 3 Amigos up as our one trick. Bumbers and Saints exposed us big time, and the rest, including bottom 4 Port continued their legacy.

Need a coach/ lateral thinker to come up with a masterstroke in the way we use Kreuzer. I am a strong believer he's a ruck rover, but I'm just guessing, just as are many others who believe he aint.

Other than the first round win against Jolly and last year's first game back against the Swans, I have never seen him dominate at the ball up/ bounce ruckwork. Tells me with Mumford missing and Jolly in bad nick is what he needs for success as a ruckman. But there's something Kreuzer does have and we have to tap into it...he is special imo. Maybe trim him down and bulk up Warnock and make them wins for us.

What we do have is potential, and any potential candidate for a coaching job at Carlton can see this.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

the hawks have won 1 premiership in 4 years, they are pretty good.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

Whilst there'd be disputes over particular points of difference, the original summation is excellent IMHO. And yes, he's gone too hard on some things but the bottom line is that this is a BRUTAL and RUTHLESS business. Some posters here have got to stop acting like the parent of a miscreant child who can never do anything wrong in their eyes. When the teacher rings home, the parent either denies the child's infractions defends their actions or deflects the blame on other students. I don't give a flowering @#$% about other sides. I only care about Carlton.

Stop defending the indefensible, stop making excuses, stop looking at other clubs.

1 flag in 25 years and an uncertain future ahead of us. Some on this site are flowering blind, deaf and mute to what has and is happening down at Royal Parade. We WERE a powerhouse. Right now we are an IRRELEVANT RABBLE.

I don't care about all of Hawthorn's !@##$ ups over the last few years
FACT 1. They recruited well and won a flag in 2008
FACT 2. Their coach has been universally credited with coming up with two-three innovative gameplans over the last few years
FACT 3. They are eyeing top 4 this year

Yes I know our injuries are of M.A.S.H proportions and they mitigate our situation somewhat. They don't mitigate the Ess, StK and PA game if we were a half decent side
And they dont mitiigate our snails pace improvement over Ratten's period (with 3 No 1's + Judd)

And his assessment of Gibbs is spot on.

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!