The answer is you cant fix it
People are the way they are
I keep saying it
In order to change the board must change
And Sticks goes
And is not involved in anything to do with the club
Hopefully an innovative, intelligent board who think AFL 21st Century style

I am sick of the excuses
too many injuries
cant play Etihad
blah blah blah
Face it Last Fridays effort was pissweak

As I posted in the review thread, the bottom line is we are 12th at round 16. With a losing record and highly likely to not play finals.

In a wide open season where we ourselves expected to be challenging for the flag.

People can mitigate all they like but that is clearly unacceptable.

A review is required of the entire club, top to bottom, no area spared. The decision makers need to fully ascertain why we are in the position we are in. Take appropriate action from there.

To gloss over our issues and attribute them to injuries and fitness would be extremely foolish. As would be making a move on ratts without addressing our other issues.

_________________
We are on our way back...

Oh, no wrist-slashing or card-cutting at all for me over our performances this year. The club has induced more apathy than anything right now.

It's been my experience that the people least likely to create a successful outcome are optimists and pessimists. Realists, on the other hand, are usually quite good at identifying problems and doing what needs to be done. They're also good at making themselves better, and at risk minimisation.

Pessimists tend to lack motivation. Optimists tend to just assume things will work out.

I think when Sticks said our plan was to win 2 flags in 5 years, he was being very optimistic. I think anyone who still thinks the only problem with this club is a whole bunch of unlucky injuries is being very optimistic.

Any realistic assessment of our club would lead you to acknowledge that we have too many departments and functions that max-out at the mediocre range.

Pessimists will say the glass is half empty.

Optimists will say the glass is half full.

Realists will say the glass is at 50% capacity, and we won't be a serious contender until we get more water in the bloody thing.

I'm a realist.

I wasnt expecting a flag this season though prior to the season was certainly expecting top 4 - I dont think that is unreasonable given the way we finished the previous season in perth. My question to you though, is post the perth loss, how many people here were out there raving at the mediocre nature of the clubs various departments/performances? The answer of course, is not many at all.

So what changed this season?

Well clearly injuries have have had a significant impact on performances - To date, we've had just 4 senior players that have managed all 15 games this season - betts, gibbs, garlett (who is out of form) and robinson (currently playing with a broken hand). I'm curious as to whether or not you realised that?

A few weeks ago, it was reported up until that point in time, we'd had double the number of injuries than in the previous 2 seasons. I put it to you that the actual figure is significantly worse than the headline figure suggests

In terms of games missed due to injury by senior players (note - excludes games they got injured in, or were played whilst not 100% fit ie yarran)

We've had 5 players that have missed >1/2 the season thus far (15 games played)
laidler - 13 games
waite - 11 games
warnock - 11 games (excludes last week where he was dropped)
murphy - 8 games
carazzo - 9 games

Another 5 players have missed > 1/4 of the season thus far
duigan - 6 games
yarran - 6 games
walker - 6 games
henderson - 6 games
jamison - 4 games

On top of the above, an extra 10 players have been injured at various times earlier in the season as well.
- Judd (shoulder early in season, undisclosed pre-break)
- scotland (calf)
- collins (knee)
- armfield (knee)
- curnow (ankle)
- ellard (knee)
- touhy (back)
- Simpson (jaw)
- hampson (knee)
- thornton (glut)* - missed 4 weeks but excluded from above as seems his papers are stamped

Thats 20 senior players with injury interrupted seasons - half of which, have been significantly impacted. There have also been reports that kreuzer hasnt been 100% and should be rested. There have also been various suggestions that lucas has been struggling with injury as well (ratten media conference, posters here). - if thats true, then that makes 22 of our core senior players that have had injury impacted seasons.

What many probably dont realise is that that the 'twice' the number of injuries analysis in previous seasons was only a headline figure ie injuries to key personnel rather than senior players. It certainly didnt take into account was the rate of injuries to backup players that might otherwise have come into the senior team and either filled a role or contributed when the front liners went down.

Consider the following
- rowe - unavailable ALL year
- mitchell - has only been back in the ants for about a month or so
- casboult, davies, white - unavailable for most of the year with injuries. Last weekend was game 1 back from 8+ week layoffs
- bell and ROK didnt play in ants until mid may due to injures
- buckley missed about 2 mths of the season with a finger injury
- bray missed 2+ mths due to a shoulder injury

Thats 9 reserve players that have missed 2+ months of football - other reserve players have had niggles here and there as well

Our list is what? 48 players? - to date...
- approx 40% of our list has missed > 1/4 of the season with injuries (19/48)
- approx 30% of our list has missed > 1/2 of the season to date with injuries (14/48)

Feel free to do the numbers and check the math

So, my question to you is what impact you think such an injury list will have had on team selection, team structure and the teams performance thus far this season? What impact do you think the [REDACTED] up VFL system where we've had numerous byes would have had on player development and players returning from injury?

Given the above information, how can you realistically judge the team's performance on a week to week basis? or, as some here have requested the sacking of the coach and wholesale changes to the club? FMD

There is no question that some performances this season have been below par (effortwise) - however until the season is completed and a thorough review takes place (of ALL departments), any calling for sackings or wholesale changes is premature to say the least!

edit: double post

Under your consider the following you rattle of a list of ten guys of which 7 have never played a senior game between them.. one who has played a half a game... and one who has played one game in 2 years.. and another who is very average.

Consider the following... none of those guys would make one iota of difference to where were at right now...

and you totally lost me from that point on.. where before that you lost me but i was willing to read as much as i could...

but u started it off saying "i am a realist"

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

What I expected from you. At some point in time, every player on the list would have either been a debutant, or had of played just a handful of lacklustre games.

The pies have had 7 debutants this year - another 4 players had played < 5 games each before the start of this season (2, 4, 5 & 5). Thats 11 players that have come into the collinwood team and contributed in one way or another.

Prior to this season, those 11 players had played a total of 16 games senior games. Using your logic, they must all be shit.

There is no doubt that that a fair few of the players that I listed would have gotten games this year had they not had injury interrupted seasons.

People on this board pot rattan for not playing more kids/development players - they overlook that in many instances, these guys just haven't been available to be selected.

Yes but he isnt playing guys who have played in the past and played good games.......

Thornton Russell Ellard Lucas Bower Collins ... and players who have not yet debuted but arent debuting McKiness till 2 weeks ago McArthy and Kerr...

And you are asking us to consider Casboult and White and Buckley???

Keep going Mr Realist......youre spinning me out here.....whats abit more tripping out gunna do???

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Ellard, Bower, Thornton, lucas and Russell have all been played this season.

In the case of bower (9 games), ellard, (8 games), lucas (8 games) and russell (6 games) all lost their spots due to poor form/below par performances.

Thornton (5 games) went out of the team with a glut injury that kept him out for a few weeks. For whatever reason, he hasn't been picked since - however its misleading to suggest that these guys haven't been played previously.

Collins was coming back from a shoulder redo and took a while to get going into the season. He has played 6 of the past 7 games

McInness got his chance after a few good weeks at VFL. McCarthy and Kerr haven't shown enough at VFL to suggest they were in form/should be given a game.

Casboult was looking very promising pre-season. He showed he could make an impact in the game against the dogs @ etihad. White has played some important roles for the club previously and shown an ability to fill a role in the team. Both would have played this season had they not been injured.

As for Buckley, who knows how he might have developed had he not missed 8 weeks with a finger injury? He DID to well in a brief appearance in one of the preseason games prior to doing his finger, Physically, he isn't that much different to bootsma (and as a mid, could probably get away with it better)

So 4th Chicken, as a realist, what's your solution to rising back up the table? Is it a matter of maintaining the status quo and simply writing off 2012 as an aberration due to, as you point out, "injuries?"

everyone looks promising pre season.

Never seen a pre season where peeps dont look promising....

The reality is very different...

Youre bringing up people with no track record over people who have some kind of track record....... and saying ....i dunno what youre saying .....

no offence ... but thats not convincing at all......!!!!

Its more akin to a Hans Christian Anderson story....

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

There is little doubt that a review should and will be conducted once the season is completed. That should cover the whole gamut of areas and include coaching, match committee, why we've been getting so many injuries, injury management with players returning, player development and what to do if next seasons VFL is full of byes like this one. Obviously it would include off-field stuff as well such as membership etc

I haven't written off 2012 as yet however agree that it is getting more difficult to make the 8 with each loss. Until its impossible to do so though, we should be aiming for a spot in the finals. The more finals experience our players get, the better. If and when it becomes mathematically impossible, then by all means prepare for 2013.

Fact is, the 2012 HAS been an aberration
- Prior to this year, we've generally improved every year under Ratten (exception being 2010 when we lost Fev)
- We've had significantly more injuries this year than at any point in the previous 10 years (feel free to go back and check). The injuries have been at least X2 worst than each of the previous 2 seasons (a detailed analysis will show its significantly > 2 fold)
- We've had a (probable) one-off VFL system, where 1/4 of the season has been byes. That has had a definite impact on the ability to continuity into developing players and players coming back from injury

Objectively, assuming we don't have injuries like this year, we WILL improve next year and top 4 should again be a priority.

If the review suggests that we need to change the coach, then fine. We shall do so - however any such decision should only be done in the cold light of day and certainly shouldn't be influenced by 'supporters' baying for blood.

Thats an opinion not a fact.....

Thats a fact!!!

Winning one elimination final in 5 years isnt an improvement.. maybe the victorious elimination final is the abberation...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Agree entirely. Always appreciate the amount of effort you put into your posts, 4thchicken, even if it would seem that others do not.

Don't forget that while on the surface, 2010 appears to have been a season of stagnation, if not regression, it was the first year post-Fevola and following a pre-season in which many Carlton fans were slashing their wrists over from where the goals were going to come. Yet we were still able to fashion a forward line capable of defying the apparent odds and were able to make finals. So it could reasonably be argued (based on fact) that until 2012, we improved every year under Ratten.

_________________
Formerly Blues-Back2003.

No doubt that if we had more fit reserves players all season more of them would have played when our seniors fell over.

Wouldn't have saved our season, but would probably have made the list's development look better.

Except that were 13th.
And thats where we are...

Were talking about a number of players who are not e njoying their football.. and lack confidence and gone backwards.

Bryce Gibbs number 1 pick..... what is he????

Jordan Russell... ex runner up best and fairest.... gone.
Thornton
Bower
All gone backwards.

Kreuzer flogged.....

Judd having his worse ever season and worse games ever.... and now having his serving for undisciplined play.

Can go on and on.. about players who arent injured.... all falling away....

the confidence of the group is shot..

and players left to rot in the ressies

I wouldnt call that good man manageent ....

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

You don't know what I'm saying because you have your agenda and rant rather than post considered opinion.

1. People who have had a previous track record WERE given opportunities in the team until they lost their spots due to poor form.
2. You have a go at players for not having any track record to speak of. What track record did the 7 collingwood debutants have prior to this season? Yet those 7 have played 29 games between them this season - and in ALL instances, players with a better track record would have been available for selection at the time.

No offence? - Why would I take any offence from someone who behaves like a forum troll?

Thats stupidity.
You are bringing up guys who have neve played a game as an excuse over guys.. and let me repeat this again...... WHO HAVE SOME KIND OF TRACK RECORD... and have PLAYED GOOD GAMES IN THE PAST.

Casboult is not a better option than Thornton.. im sorry.... unless you can tell me how Casboult is a better option than Thornton ,,,,
Bootsma was never a better option than Bower....
Buckley can not be a better option than Kerr this year....

Youre totally tripping into space now....

Its got to do with preparing players minds who cann do a job and Ratten has been unable to do this.
There is no reason why Russell is a spent AFL footballer... or Thornton... or Bower..... or Lucas cant play the game... or Bryce Gibbs...or Garlett....etc etc etc etc etc

And youre banking on guys who have never played... over guys who have shown they can play....

Its the craziest of crazy strategies to have a consistent season.

Destroy AFL careers and use injuries to guys that have never played.... and never done anything in the VFL even.. and stick figures as an excuse to why youre failing.

Ratten kills peoples minds to prepare.


Do you copy that... or is that too difficult????

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Firstly if you consider the injury list round by round, there have been enough physical replacements to cover missing players. The fact that replacements have not performed to the required level or considered ready by MC, indicates that players have not been developed well or drilled to the style of play (I.e. Collingwood players seem to slide in and out without much impact on the performance level of the team), poor list management, and the lack of tactical flexibility and innovation to cover for missing players.

Secondly, agree that the team performances have improved every year. Has that been because of Ratten or natural player improvement ? A young team with high draft picks including 3 no 1 picks, will show strong natural improvement that will contribute towards greater performances, but have we played anywhere close to our potential on a consistent basis ? Even Grant Thomas got St.Kilda playing in a couple of PFs. I find it concerning that many of our high pick players such as Russell, Bower, and even Lucas to an extent, have had breakout years, show glimpses of talent, then have faded away. Why is this so ?

I would be interested in your opinion on :

Ratten’s ability to extract the most out of this list ?
Ratten’s tactical and game day nous ?
Player development under Ratten ?
Finally, if CFC was your own business would you trust Sticks and Gleeson to undertake review of the business ?

_________________
Scott, things aren't as happy as they used to be down here at the unemployment office. Joblessness is no longer just for Philosophy majors - useful people are starting to feel the pinch.

He isnt accounting for how many players are down on confidence but dont have injuries,
How many are played with their papaers stamped hanging over their heads,

Just mumbo jumbo excuses

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.