Kreuzer had a great game but can we be sure he can handle that sort of load week after week?

As for Warnock I'd love to trade him but that would leave us with only 2 recognised ruckman on the entire list and I don't think putting our faith in a pair of untried forwards to pick up the slack is the best idea. Especially when one has had constant shoulder injuries and the other could be described as a fringe player at best.

Anyone know what the draft looks like for rucks? Any big blokes in the WAFL, SANFL or VFL that could act as depth if Warnock is moved on?

The good thing about last night was the fact that the ball came in either very fast and direct, or the payers waited and chipped around until a target emerged. When the big guys are there, including Waite, Hendo, Warnock or Hammer the no brainer lob comes into play. This forced the guys to think. Surprisingly they did it quite well. It was good to watch in terms of a tactical set up point of view.

Let's pray the 3 ruckman experiment is dead and buried... forever

...but one thin is quite clear now... there's no place for Warnock in this team long term. He's ok in the middle but mammary glands on a bull around the ground.

Our future will be Kruezer as main ruck with Hampson or Rowe as back up.

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

We need 3 rucks on the list, we are lucky to have one match fit at any given time.

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Bawditawaba

If we trade Warnock for example we will have Kruezer, Hampson, Casboult. Given the way the game is played that is enough. You then hopefully recruit A Sam Jacobs type as a rookie and maybe a mature aged backup ala Hudson or Stephenson.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

Warnock is out of contract at the end of the season - have to take that into consideration. We could get nothing for him.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

In which case, hopefully Gold Coast finish last.

That forces GWS to take him as an uncontracted player, and we get compo for him. All things considered we'd end up with either a first rounder straight after our first pick, or at worst a mid second round pick.

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

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Kreuzer was awesome last night, but we can't play 1 ruckman every week.

I think the problem is that we have 2 guys who are capable of being #1 ruckman (Kreuzer & Warnock) but nobody who can effectively play the tall forward/#2 ruckman role.

The MC hoped Kreuzer or Hampson would develop into the tall forward/#2 ruckman role, with Warnock as the #1 ruckman. However, the way it's worked out is that Kreuzer hasn't succeeded in any role other than ruckman, and Hampson isn't good enough yet as a forward to be selected when Hendo and Waite are available.

With Hammer likely to be out for the rest of the season, I think in some games we'll have no alternative but to play both Kreuzer and Warnock. In other games, Hendo (or T-Bird) might have to play as the tall forward/#2nd ruck. Next year, Casboult or Rowe or Mitchell might be able to put their hand up for that tall forward/#2nd ruckman role, but there's massive question marks against those guys so I wouldn't be banking on them stepping up.

Hendo has shown he can cut it at AFL level as a defender and a forward.....if he can add a 3rd string to his bow and become a solid #2nd ruckman, I think that would be a huge result for us.

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

why not?
it worked last night didn't it?
if we bring in Warnock next week our whole system changes. Our forward entries will be bombs to kreuzer, fail!
Playing 2 and 3 ruckmen has not worked for 8 weeks, finally we play just the 1 and BANG, our speed burns the clear best side in the comp.
Why on earth would we risk going backwards after last night?
Next week who does Scott Thompson, Nathan Grima and Spud Firrito get? 3 big defenders who will have no big forwards to man up on hence our side forces a change in their system that has been working
This is our strength going forward. The pies won a flag with 1 ruckman in Jolly and a backup in Brown who was more a forward.
The stats from last night show exactly what im trying to say. We lost the hitouts, yet smashed the pies in the clearances and Kreuz dominated Jolly around the ground. How would Warnock improve that??

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i AM CARLTON

If Kreuzer was awesome, you need to watch Dean Cox against North in Hobart. That was god particle.

It worked last night but won't work every week against all opponents. Plus, I'd rather we didn't kill Kreuzer. It's a long season. We don't have to play a genuine ruckman as the 2nd ruckman, but I think we do have to find a Tom Hawkins type that can be a dangerous forward and share the load and mix things up in the ruck. Hammer isn't good enough as a forward yet to play that role. I'm pretty sure it's why we drafted Rowe, but he and Casboult and Mitchell are no certainties to make the grade IMO. So unless we can pick up a ready made tall forward/#2 ruck in a trade or the draft - I'm saying that it would be a huge bonus if Hendo could add #2 ruck to his CV.

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

Cox was fantastic, as he has been all through his career . My problem with one ruckman is the issue with Kreuzers knee. If it is being drained every week, he won't be right to play every week, even though he does. He hasn't been able to jump and run for weeks until last night, what if he is struggling again next week? Do we need to take a bullet and play Warnock starting forward and try and play him in a role where he is not a liability, maybe on the goal line ? Tough call

Great thread and follow up post D85. The problem I have with the extra ruckmen argument, (whether it's one or two extras), is that it's very difficult
to assess the impact of losing the player that they have replaced. For example having an extra runner may well mean that our middlefielders get an
extra whatever % rest which means that they make it to that extra contest, get that extra tackle ... whatever. It's hard to see that, but if the extra
ruck takes a contested mark in the forward line everyone can ooh and aah and say what great value they are.

Those stats of tapouts vs clearances are gold.

Warnock deep forward can work, but he has to stay right up in the square. The leaves us still looking for a marking target at CHF. Henderson and/or Waite might be back next week, I doubt either of Mitchell or Casboult have enough post-injury time to step up next week even assuming they were ready from a talent & experience basis which I doubt. Thornton would be an option I would seriously consider as a forward who can switch back but my memories of him rucking against Sandilands the day Kreuzer did his knee ensure I'll never consider him as a second or even third rucking option. The thing about North is they have a top shelf ruck in Goldstein and 2 pretty genuine ruck/forwards in Petrie and Hansen which means first that a solo ruckman against them is likely to be worn down well before the end of the game and secondly that we need height down back.

I have always held the chief, relief and brief philosophy of rucks - that is I want at least 1 guy I'm happy to go with as first ruck (the chief ruck), 1 relief ruck I'm prepared to live with as rucking most of the day if the chief goes down (which is not to say he needs to be a genuine quality ruck, just someone who won't get slaughtered) and someone I'm prepared to live with to ruck for brief periods should either of the others go down - eg last night we had Kreuzer, Hampson and I guess Watson as the brief fill-in. Go in with only 1 ruck and he gets injured and we have Watson rucking all night against Jolly - no thanks. Our problem that of the guys we have to look at for the "relief" role we have 3 guys who are really "chiefs" and have shown little promise in any other role (Hampson has shown flashes and I think Kreuzer could develop this) and a bundle of guys who are more the "brief" level - Watson, Henderson, Mitchell. If Casboult or Rowe come on they are more likely than the aforementioned to be able to be effective in the relief role but neither looks likely to be the next Brad Ottens or Corey McKernan. A genuine ruck-forward (whether developed from within, drafted or traded in) seems to me to be a real priority - and would mean that if we were to lose one of the 3 existing rucks at the end of the year the cupboard wouldn't be completely bare.

For this week I think we need to have Warnock back to give Kreuzer a chop out at least. Do we whack him deep forward, rest him on the bench or try something different is the question. I am troubled by the height of the North forward line and the relative lack of height we have down back - only Watson is anywhere near the height of the North forwards, Jamo will usually find a way to cover the height difference, but Mcinnes and Duigan - or even Thornton or Bower if we brought either back - are giving away a lot of height. My thought is to ruck Warnock but get him to drop back to defence in the old style to give another tall body to get in the way (I hesitate to say contest) and start Kreuzer at the bounces loose in defence and then get him to ruck around the ground whilst Warnock drops into defence, where he can do the rucking when it gets there to save Kreuzer having to flog his guts out running deep into defence. At the bounce Kreuzer can position himself to make the third man up if North kick the ball forward from the bounce or run off the back of the square a lay some body on, or preferably mix it up between the two and keep North guessing. Meanwhile we play a small 5-man forward line, create match-up problems for the taller North defenders and use the ball intelligently when we bring it in, like we did last night. Maybe I'm overthinking the situation, but it seems to me that would be a way to get value out of both the rucks, give Kreuzer a chop-out and get some extra height down back to help combat the height of the North forwards. Or we simply rest the rucks deep forward and tell the small to get at their feet if the ball comes in long and high.

If Kruezer can stand up along with help from Rowe, Casboult or Mitchell that makes us very dangerous. Whoever it is one needs to be able to go forward and play that role very well.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

If we have one ruck we need a KP player who can provide relief for 15 minutes each game. Up sh1t creek without a paddle if Kreuzer hurt himself too last night.

Thoughts can vary depending on the week. If we win in the ruck and clearances etc... it's the way to go. But, if we get killed in the clearances next week for example we'll scream out for Warnock super quick. I still remember the final against the Eagles where every 2nd person cursed when Setanta went into the ruck and we suddenly got pumped in the middle. Warnock dominated then things changed when he rested. We then pointed fingers at the MC as to why Hampson wasn't in (we did find afterwards he hurt himself in the lead up). Go back through the "match day" posts.

Warnock's lack of pre-season has hurt him this year after a dominate finals series last year. No point trying to trade him out of contract, we'll get "under"s" big time. Hampson has more currency because he has a contract but he signed that contract because he wanted to stay. The value of the extra ruck has come again now with Hampson injured. Not dissimilar to other years, like last year.

1. We should try and sign Warnock asap and not even contemplate a trade. We need all 3 ruckman on our list.
2. I've always said and nothing has changed my mind - the WC model is the best. 2 KP forward + resting ruckman!!!!
3. Forget trading any of our ruckman. We need all 3 to be able to get through a season.
4. Sign Warnock up asap.

I think you get my points!

I think the trick is that while we don't need 3 ruckmen on the field, we do need 3 ruckmen on the list. I think some people are getting confused between game-day necessities and overall availability.

So we let warnock go and draft/rookie a project guy. Stranger things have happened.

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Agree. Reckon the more mids we have the less need for rucks....

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre