We're certainly not as talented as some supporters would like to believe. Any objective observer could reel off a multitude of issues with the playing group that require more than a new system to fix and that's not even considering our inconsistent effort and tendency to wilt under physical pressure. I doubt it will get much discussion though until we remove any poor coaching from the equation.

And the only thing we proved last year is that we weren't good enough to match it with the best. A competitive loss to West Coast doesn't change that.

I have seen enough over the past 7 weeks.

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We are on our way back...

Me too. But making hasty decisions won't get us anywhere if we want this list to go from good to great. Doesn't look good for Ratts - he knows where he sits in the scheme of things, unsure if there is a coach out there than can take this list to great..MM isn't the man. Happy to support what we've got providing the playing group doesnt capitulate further. A 10 goal thumping against North Melbourne would be nail in coffin. Still concerned still be 'good' with a young unproven coach instead of taking the list to 'great'.

Allow me to clarify my opening statement because I did not make it clear in all my anger.
The players I mentioned may have talent but their performances this year and their average level (not their very best) is not good enough to secure a spot at Collingwood, crows, cats, eagels etc...
Use touhy, ellard, arm field, diugan, garlett as examples (these are regular senior team players)......they would struggle to replace a player at the eagles in a 1 for 1 swap. Kreuzer and Gibbs would get a game BUT if they were playing on current form they would be playing reserves footy. Eg. Kreuzer on form would not get a game at eagles (cox and nicnat) swans (mummy and pike) crows (jacobs and griffin) he may get a game at cats (no ruck man) and may be second ruck at pies behind jolly.
You can do the same ginger with Gibbs - yes his best he gets a game at any club but based on this year he doesn't get a look in.

Good sides have consistent performance and the difference between best and average performance is much more even than what we display
Our best is very good and our average is very middle of the road.

Allow me to clarify my opening statement because I did not make it clear in all my anger.
The players I mentioned may have talent but their performances this year and their average level (not their very best) is not good enough to secure a spot at Collingwood, crows, cats, eagels etc...
Use touhy, ellard, arm field, diugan, garlett as examples (these are regular senior team players)......they would struggle to replace a player at the eagles in a 1 for 1 swap. Kreuzer and Gibbs would get a game BUT if they were playing on current form they would be playing reserves footy. Eg. Kreuzer on form would not get a game at eagles (cox and nicnat) swans (mummy and pike) crows (jacobs and griffin) he may get a game at cats (no ruck man) and may be second ruck at pies behind jolly.
You can do the same ginger with Gibbs - yes his best he gets a game at any club but based on this year he doesn't get a look in.

Good sides have consistent performance and the difference between best and average performance is much more even than what we display
Our best is very good and our average is very middle of the road.

I think it's a bit difficult to tell right now.
Is it the players, or coaching and fitness?
Is it the injuries, that also run deep through our younger group?
Is it that other clubs also have great players now, but are better coached, and conditioned?

Who can really say?

My instinct says the boys are the same ones, who can thrill us, and make us believe in all things dark navy. We will need to ad to the basic talented core, and move on players who feel they can no longer give their all, or despite trying, simply cannot give what we need.

I can't help thinking we need Andy Mc. to be clear headed, and instigate whatever change is necessary. It's gonna need tact, diplomacy, and a very sharp knife.

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That’s not a political statement — it’s a harsh reality, and we must act,” she said. “He is a clear and present danger to the things that keep us strong and free. I support impeachment.”

Maybe just maybe last year was an aberration and Somewhere in between that level and our current level is actually our real position.......I dont know but certainly we must be more talented than what we have shown this year.

Ratts had Crosisca too.

Yeah, but how good was Shane Watson really?

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

I think our average is very average. Our best is very good, but our ordinary is really bloody ordinary.

But at the end of the day, moving forward, WE HAVE THE TALENT!!

_________________
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

Played 100+ games much the same as Russell but possibly more reliable in defence.

Delisted after MM's first season, at age 26, and not picked up by any other club. Sounds great..... almost as good as Batheras. I wasn't around in the 90s, but was his kicking as penetrating as Licuria's?

I'd take our list over Collingwoods early 2000s list any day of the week. Just sayin....


(And they came within a bee's dick of beating the best team of the modern era)

_________________
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

we have the talent - it just hasn't been educated and developed to the required standard

I'm not a Ratten hater, but that is hitting the nail on the head. Always looking at what the premiers did, which is really 3 years behind, as clubs would have been working on that particular trend 2 or 3 years previously

We've got the talent.

Trouble is, Ratten's game plan is "get it to the champ" (Juddy).

Naive gameplan based on having better individual players than the opposition.

Works when our list is healthy.

But get a few injuries, and there's no gameplan of substance to fall back on.

Other teams, they lose a player, they can slot in another player to play that role. Maybe not as well, but well enough.

Why?

Because they have proper gameplans, and the players play a role within that plan.

Under Ratten, if Carrazzo goes down we can't replace him because Carazzo is Carrazzo... Not a bloke who's doing a job.

At Collingwood when Ball does his knee, they have Beams or someone else do that job. Players are interchangeable components in a machine.

At Carlton, the team falls apart when we lose a key player or two.

We fell apart when we got a few injuries because those injuries exposed our suburban-footy standard gameplan, from a suburban-footy standard coach.

Our players aren't stupid. They can see that they're not being given the best chance of success, and as a result they're playing like they know they can't win the flag. THAT'S why for the most part they look disinterested. They don't believe in their coach/coaches any more. It's blindingly obvious.

We're lacking a couple of mids, and obviously a key forward, for sure. But we're not helping ourselves either.

I'm scared to look any further.

Yes, I'm a bit sick of people saying it too, it's as if people think that by saying that our list isn't the greatest, we are condoning the coaching and other areas of concern.

The OP is being a bit unfair to some players but others are a bit up and down at best and inconsistency can be an innate quality just like any other.

Of course there are many players that we have failed to get the best out of but there are also several that are like trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the "we have the talent" line is the last vestige of the "we are Carlton..." mentality. It's serves no real purpose.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Don't think it's as serious as moving the ball forward with confidence knowing you are going to score. Rattens strategy for the full press was a very good one, very aggrssive with full intent to win the match - skill execution, forwards leading in the right spots and defensive work in forward 50 was very poor.

And to think we had pagan before him who got sacked for the same gameplan. Isnt it a little ironic that ratten quit because of pagans gameplan, or lack thereof, and it has come back on him. System vs. Talent any day of the week.

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"You're not gonna believe this. The guy killed 16 czechoslovakians. He was an interior decorator."

"His house looked like shit!"

I know, let's get rid of the team, and just keep Ratten.

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That’s not a political statement — it’s a harsh reality, and we must act,” she said. “He is a clear and present danger to the things that keep us strong and free. I support impeachment.”

2 ruckman in your key posts sums it up. That's Ratts decision.