Here is your answer to why I think the problem lies far deeper than a few of you think
The first 3 rounds were awesome. Even a realist like me felt we may had finally turned the corner.
Then we were smashed
And we have been shit for 6 weeks since
Our wins
Freo who had 7 more shots with the big man missing
Gws who beat us in the clearences by 13
Dees who were within 16 points at 3 quarter time

three pretty shit opponents dont you think

Our 4 losses have been thrashings

Injuries do take their toll but we have been pathetic and looked like alsorans

We should have the stock exchange as our major sponsor

ALL ORDINARIES( sorry that's an old one)

So why has their been such a huge differential between our first 3 rounds and the last 6rounds


THERE SHOULDN'T BE MATE

And that tells you there is something rotten in Denmark

Unless your a clueless moron you CAN see that
THE PROBLEM LIES WITHIN THE CLUB'S INNER WALLS

not a lot obviously?

Obviously.

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Possibly a clueless moron but beg to differ......

Agree the results of the last 6 weeks have been a disgrace....I dont think anyone would disagree

I could claim like other to know the reasons but I cant. I can disagree on the likely drivers being not as established as others care to think.

Its not a fact that the problem lies within the inner sactum of the club, the culture, the environment. May turn out to be the case yet at what stage do we make that assumption or in some cases statement.

How can we have the year we had last year, perform as we did against west coast and when chips are down for a short period of time draw the conclusion its as dire as culture and demand drastic change?

From the performance vs West Coast we do have the capacity to compete both in talent and physicality.
2011 showed little of a cultural virus thu-out the club
The team was aligned and played their asses off for each other IMO and for Ratts and the CFC

My take on this be it moronic or otherwise is the problem does not simply lie within the CLUBS INNER WALLS

Its within the PLAYERS EARS

They thought they were as good as premiers beating a depleted Collingwood and got smashed the next week suffering from tall poppy syndrome and have lost belief amongst losing players they FEEL they need to WIN.

They are weak minded and it would mean jack shit had Mick Malthouse been at the helm during the last 6 weeks the results would be the same and the challenges ahead no easier to address.

Should Ratten be cast aside now he will be nothing more than a scapegoat for reason other than his ability to influence or change outcomes across an acceptable timeframe.

We'll have to agree to disagree.....for mine way too soon to throw Carlton People on the scrap heap just because our players whilst talented are naive and piss weak when challenged....

Ratts was a ballsy player and spent his years eating dirt in the contested footy and has earnt the right to work through this - when IM he has little to do with the problem.....He has the unlucky job of trying to inspire what seems to me nothing more than a talented bunch of fragile minds that struggle when serously challenged....They are brilliant when desperate to win yet shit themselves when expeted to and hunted......Be it Ratts or Malthouse its still a massive challenge.

What can I say?[/quote][/quote]


accept differing opinions my arse

2 different people Ratts player
Ratts coach

This is not Karma....
he doesnt get a better coaching life cos hes playing life was great,

Robert Walls was a better player than Ratten.. and he was a premiership coach 2 years later he was finished.

This club used to be about results.

Now its about the past... the present is pretty awful

Each coach should be treated the same.. past player or not.

This is not nancy league.. its the biggest comp in the land.

Malthouse got pushed out after winning a flag.

Sentimental fools should listen to Paul McArtney and Wings.. not follow the football!!!

Ok??

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Why are you taunting me? That's your 2nd post responding to the above.....

Anyway, you seem to be making this about the coach. I'm not.

I'm saying that there's a malaise that goes deeper than just losing some games, and you have actually pointed to it by saying the players are fragile and mentally weak.

Well my question is (and has been all along): How come?

Apart from Bootsma and Watson (who both played not too badly), the other players have been around for a while. How can we have so many talented but mentally weak players?? That's my question! If you respond to this post, it would be great if you address this, my main point, not attack some straw man.

So, please! Read my lips. I'm NOT laying this all at Ratten's feet.

I genuinely want to know how come, after so many years, we have a bunch of players who are one or more of the following:
- the wrong ones or not the right mix;
- not strong enough;
- not good enough or not drilled well enough;
- not mentally strong enough;
- not developed enough.

Regardless of the answer, it must include one or more of the following:
- not good enough recruiting;
- not good enough physical training;
- not good enough coaching;
- not good enough mentoring;
- not good enough development.

Whatever you say, these traits have been around for a while - not just the past month. Similar to the Essendon* loss this year, in 2011 we lost (or drew) winnable games to Bulldogs and Essendon*, and in 2010 we lost winnable games to North and Freo. And all at points in the season when a win was critical! This group has been not good enough, or mentally weak, or whatever you want to call it for a few years now.

Now if you see that the problem is more than one of the above, then you have to ask yourself again - how come? Why haven't the CEO, the board, the president done anything about it? And why does it keep happening?

I've been blind to it, but the likes of Synbad, Keogh, Prelim99 (the latter 2 whom I've vehemently disagreed with over that period) have been talking about it for that whole time. It's now become glaring!

I don't question your loyalty or your intelligence. I just want to alert you to this because you clearly don't see it. If people don't see it, the 16 years will turn into 20, and then 25 and before you know it, it's 32 years - like Richmond. That time goes very quickly. I remember the 1970 GF like it was yesterday. Now all of a sudden it's 42 years. WHAT HAPPENED?? When I was a kid, it was fashionable to barrack for Melbourne, because they won a flag pretty much every year. It looked like it was going to be that way forever. But ya tell that to the young people of today...... they don't belieeeeve ya....

If you respond, please respond to the points I made, NOT to something I didn't say.

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A passionate post, Moshe. Pity you had to waste it on football supporters.

I don't usually get involved this kind of stuff. I just like watching footy without too many complications. But, in line with what you're saying, it looks like we've thrown a lot of dosh updating our physical environment with out thinking too much about our mental (for want of a better word) environment, which is still too 1980s.

Sport is littered with yesteyears teams
Leeds United
Fitzroy football club.... 8 flags till 1945!!
EIGHT!!!!!

Powerhouse succesful side pre ww2.
Richmond... in the 60's 70's and 80's it wasnt Collingwood and Essendon*... it was these Giants and us.

Some people dont want to come to grips with time. But time has come to grips with you.

I would argue the game has left us behind since the mid eighties.
Sure we won 1995 on the back of the same roll of the dice of the mid eighties.Briefly going up for air one last time before we continued our sink to the bottom.
It has realy been mid 1980s since we were comp leaders and inovators.
In came the AFL/ West Coast and the others followed.
Everything changed except for us.
Last club to embrace the draft.
Still looking for that one person who will change the landscape of this footy clubs fortunes.
Pratt/Judd/Boak/Goddard... whoever... they will still be swimming in this fishbowl and whats in the water will get all of them.The toxicity level is way too high.

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Damn it Synbad....you mean we can't do both?

[youtube]GFRcMYjut4o[/youtube]

i wasnt really thinking of the moll of King Tide

I was thinking more Silly Love Songs...

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Here is my theory re onfield issues, which i cant prove, but thought i would share anyway. We have too many coaches and the players are confused with too many different messages.

On paper it sounds like we have invested in the right things. Tackling is so important, lets hire a full time tackling coach. Tick. Stoppages are crucial, lets become best in league at stoppages and hire a full time stoppage coach. Tick. These are examples of a coaching model that is based on not paying top dollar for the head coach, and instead spreading the $ over the coaching team. Even sticks in his rebuttal to maguire said as much.

Maybe the coaches and the messages need to be rationalised.

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'‘He had an enormous capacity to pump himself up and get the best out of himself when it mattered. He had a fire in his belly – a passion for the contest like few other players’' -- D Parkin in reference to the dominator

Haven't always agreed with you in the past M25 but I must say, I could not fault one thing you said.

I too like Keogh thought that we were on the right track after the Coll game, but now these losses have spotlighted deficiences that some of us have spoken about, then retreated back and thought we were wrong, then provided us with another false dawn etc.

I am now absolutely convinced beyond doubt that there is systemic failure at Carlton. And absolutely, it's more than just the coach.

Those past games you brought before are the absolute paragons of my frustration. When was the last time Lindsay Thomas kicked 8? When was the last time Dalhaus made a fool of the opposition etc.

Everyone of the reasons you gave before are spot on. It's an amalgam of recruiting, development, sustainable and resilient on field structures etc.

You spoke about Melbourne before. So true. A close mate of mine has been telling me for the last 5-7 years that we will be the next Richmond. Could Richmond have ever imagined in 1980 that 32 years on, they'd still be without a flag? My answer is NO. Well 1995 is now 17 years away and right now I don't know where we are at. Sure we may???? salvage some of the season this year, but bottom line is that we will not finish top 4 and we will probably not be playing on Prelim final day.

Do I have any answers. Not really. I can see the problems though.

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

to a point but not really thinking purely with sentiment

approaching more from an angle of remaining composed and attempting to take an objective view and not jump the gun and go for a scale of change that IMO at this stage is not required....

The boys are being outplayed and as much as anything else need to respond......for mine its the players more so than any other at the club that needs to accept how they are being challenged, lift and change

lots of good theories, many will be wrong - we could change coaches or we could ask more of our on field leaders that influence the rest of the team more so than any coach or hierrarchy ever could IMO.....

at the moment I dont think its culture or systems and processes.....could be wrong but I expect a response from the playing group would make a big difference.....Battles are won on the front line IMO and we are turning up having already lost - May be just me but I really do think its in the most part b/w the ears of the 22 on the park that is letting us down.....not because of coaches or presidents or cultures or environments....those things can always be improved but makes minimal difference if we dont have the right mix on the park that will maximise those intangibles

Going to be an interesting 6 months to watch how this plays out

Happy to be wrong but Hope Im right and Judd and Co empower the troups with confidence as they should

Not taunting intentionally moshe25 and pls dont view as an attack on your opinion - not the case at all......Your post earlier on your commitment to the Blues and passion to see them succeed was one of the best I have read - impressive and have nothing but respect for your passion for the club...

You may be 100% correct in your view of the world and your post above has opened up plenty to think about....BUT....as with everything 100 people equates hopefully to 100 different perspectives - a good thing or there would be no point of a forum to share thoughts & ideas....

I dont see that its simply that I cant see a systemic problem within the club. Maybe it is that I just cant see it & It could be true but I dont think so and in saying that am not trying to piss anybody off. It is easy to draw those conclusions and again they may be right on the money but I also see them if the case as decoupled at the moment from our current performance....

Unless the culture has taken a dramatic change recently which I dont think is the case, (Im assuming consistently bad if bad at all?), our performance or more so on field effort should be stable....Its clearly not, on this we agree, but my thoughts are at a lower level than yourself and many others it seems - which I am ok with.

Team Sport has a high level of unpredictability and rapid change, strategies constantly being counted, relevant visions become redundant, unexpected losses occur to all teams, adjustment the responsibility of coaches and players collectively.

To answer your points in yellow specifically we could draw the conclusion that we have underperformed in one or all of the areas as you and many others suggest - that could be the case for sure.
"I genuinely want to know how come, after so many years, we have a bunch of players who are one or more of the following:
- the wrong ones or not the right mix;
- not strong enough;
- not good enough or not drilled well enough;
- not mentally strong enough;
- not developed enough.

Regardless of the answer, it must include one or more of the following:
- not good enough recruiting;
- not good enough physical training;
- not good enough coaching;
- not good enough mentoring;
- not good enough development."

I simply think I could easily agree with the first list and pick a root cause from the second but I dont think its that simple - I think its simpler again.

My interpretation of our On Field strategy the last couple of years has been speed and agility as a point of difference to countering the trends in the forward press by recent successful clubs. We copied the press (agreed with varying success) and taken the path of developing an on field strategy that would be give us an edge against most other teams....If this interpretation is wrong I am stuffed from the get go but believe is the case.

We have developed our team around this strategy, gained momentum in 2011 and had every confidence would bring home the bickies in 2012/13....

Was as good a strategy as any IMO and shows the operational group has attempted to lead from the front, be innovative, and have a very distinctive game style Vs our competition.....

I was comfortable with this approach, enjoyed the development thru 2011, and have been relatively happy with the direction of the team, and looked forward to taking it to another level this year - so whats happened this year IMO

Teams have changed and countered our strategy and increased the importance of the contested footy which we have not recruited for, nor developed for.

My view is we are now in a position of being caught out with a strategy and playing style that could have but looks unlikely to reap the success we had hoped....That doesnt make it a bad strategy, it just highlights change we did not predict and allow for.....Should we have knocked off West Coast last year this point of difference with the right 22 on the park could have delivered and the expectation this year was that it would again go close and was as good a strategy as any....and hopefully better.

Yes we have had losses we shouldn’t have had and things could have been different however in my view all pretty much expected given the maturity of the list and the dynamics within the team....

Post the thinking you have forced me to do I actually think our biggest issue is on field leadership and influence.....I get Ratts is not the #1 coach in the land but do think he is good enough to achieve the successes we all want. I am not a big believer that the coach is the be all and end all, and I think of Geelong 2011 when thinking this - yes ultimately accountable however on field leaders are just as if not more influential regarding performance across time.

We have some strategy issues now and need to work through how we counter the contested footy with the cattle we have. I think Ratts and Co can do that.....just my opinion.....

The biggest challenge is to the Players IMO......I think they have dropped their heads, their worlds shattered by Essendon* and the rest, and questioning their own capabilities.....

I think they are thinking like many here - we are not good enough - we thought we were but we are not.

I think this is wrong - They were good enough - They are not now - But can be again.

Things have changed and they need to adjust - I think it is that simple.

We have an interesting bunch of individuals in the team - not many standout leaders - but with enough talent IMO.

Will enough of them stand up is the only thing I care about ATM....the rest of it is just assumptions and hearsay IMO

Cheers

I would have thought a strategy geared to a style of play that was last year's is not an innovative way to go

I thought innovative would have been to see where the game would go (not where it is) and then develop a strategy on that

and

Surely even when developing said strategy a club does not put all the eggs in one basket - that would be too fevolarish...

at the crux though

I think this club is crap at evaluating itself - has been for a long, long time...

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

And what's wrong with that

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This thread proudly sponsered by Hansard.

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That’s not a political statement — it’s a harsh reality, and we must act,” she said. “He is a clear and present danger to the things that keep us strong and free. I support impeachment.”

Well, I think you have rose coloured glasses, but FWIW, I really really REALLY hope that you're right and I'm wrong.

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After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
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Good response Blues Rock

moshe and synners have got me thinking. Synners always does. He keeps the bastards honest.
Whilst I was thinking about our clubs' weaknesses, I started to see the credibility in the argument.
I'm glad they question the club.

You question the players and I'm more inclined to want to abuse those pricks on the field because they are happy to be taken off the streets, take the big bucks, pampered and revered etc but they don't want commit to putting their heads over the ball, or tackle like their life depends on it to help the club win. Soft cocks,

Off field, there must be dick heads too. There is in every club, but we have a genuine problem since Elliot days..

The speed machine they tried to create is great, but surely they had to hedge their bets too. Plan B?
If they didn't, and it seems they didn't, then they were just copying the Knights' blueprint for the Bombers all over again, and we know what was needed to fix that up in round 4 this year. Muscle in the clinches. Contested footy. Finals footy.

We are weaklings in body strength because that's the type our club has selected. And our club has done nothing to address this. Both off field issues. Then there's the Fev, McLean and many other decisions the off field leaders made which left most of us who are hungry for success gobsmacked.

We all know speed kills, but to win a flag, we need players who can play one on one, under pressure, and withstand the pressure (physical and mental) to win finals, and this mob can't.

Problem is the players and the coaches. They haven't planned a plan B. Tat's obvious. They've said it in the public domain this week that they don't even know what's going on or what to do to fix the problem...in other words, it seems like our coaching staff have surrendered?...as have some of the players. WTF is that?

Depth is a recruiting and development problem. It's our on field issue but created by those who make the decisons; off field.

What about the 3 year Waite contract at 29yo??? FMD.

I too look back to the WCE game and feel the same as you Bluerock. I look at danyboy's last post and feel he's spot on. We haven't moved forward; we've stagnated. There is no new trategy for 2012, whilst all the clubs succeeding atm have considered the 2012 strategy and most likely Plan B and C.

I want every @#$%&! person belonging to the club on field and off field to know that I, and many of us true supporters, want change at the end of the season if we don't end up top 4 and win a prelim, and I want some of those kids who are excess at the Suns but have a bit more ticker than some we have on board right now.

No one will put a ticket together to compete the current regime, until King Kerna steps aside. What's the point in working towards building a better ticket if they're going to lose, and be considered unCarlton by doing so. How do we improve anything in that type of environment. Kerna has to make way for progress. First time I'm saying that in public, but its unhealthy the way it is right now. No accountability!

You know I love Carlton and they have been fantastic to me from 1968 right up to 2000. I want to give my kids the same or similar experience, and if those twits aren't made of the same stuff of those who played and worked for this club between '64 and '95 (maybe earlier), then they should piss off and give someone else a better a go. I really want to belt some of those players who wore our jumper last week, and that's something I have never felt before, because they did not represent the true spirit of Carlton.

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