Most of the top sides have KP 2 marking options plus a resting ruckman. Footy is more contested now and marking targets are paramount. Not sure we have a better contested pack making forward than Thornton when in form. Too much to rely on ruckman to do their job in the ruck then be forced to go forward as prime goalkickers too. Their goals that should be a bonus.

That's just one part of team selection. We continue to play players out of form. If you have too many of them eventually the side turns to crap. At stoppages maybe need to make more use of Ellard, Robbo and Betts. Betts is very clean at stoppages.

Unfortunately, this has happened before plenty of times, almost everytime we are challenged. This is why Hawthorn ALWAYS beat us.
There is a worrying trend when Carrazzo is injured and we just lack extractors it seems.
Russell needs to be dropped, but so does Gibbs. He is seriously wasted either in the position we play him or for some other reason. He is just not improving.
Waite is unreliable.

We need to harden the team mentally.
Adelaide will beat us.
We will beat two crap teams in Melbourne and Port and think we are superstars, then have a break and then, like every year, Hawthorn will beat us.

I am sick of it

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I will miss you Kouta - thanks for the memories. ps. Kouta > * for ∞

Think after what's happened Ratten will address that and did after match apparently. We've been caught out a couple of times this year by aggression when we haven't been fully switched on. Ever since I've supported Carlton every time they've had a "lazy" win like last week they carry it over to the next week. You will a much harder unit next week as we don't have alot of soft players more we play soft at times.

Can someone please tell Kruze and Hammer to actually tap it to one of their own players? The number of times their hit outs went straight into Haye's or Del Santo's hands was laughable; hence why we won the hit-out stat, but failed the clearance stat. If our strength is in our speed, then sometimes we need to think about the strategy that Fremantle employ with Sandi where he just punches the ball forward 20-30m into space where there is no congestion. I noticed we only did that a couple of times last night when we should've done it alot more and exposed St Kilda's lack of pace on the outside from stoppages.

That was the beauty of Warnock but then again one takes a choice if they want clean tapouts or more around the ground and in front of goals. Can't play all 3.

So disappointing and not because that we lost, but the way we went about it.

No heart, failure to run and spread at every contest and a complete lack of willingness to put your body on the line.

I can't understand starting ellard as a sub......congratulate him on the way he came on and really put a stamp on the game with his
pressure around the contest and ability to run both ways. if only some other primadonna's followed suit....

We have played well against a dead Brisbane and Collingwood and that's about it

Yet when I argued that we should use Hampson as the second tall forward when Warnock comes back, you said it wouldn't work.
Make up your mind.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Hampson to Betts. Goal!

Kreuzer tap out the back into open space, Betts runs on to it. Goal!

The problem may not entirely rest with the ruckmen.

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I think, watching Ellard, he has the potential to take on Carrot's role in his absence. Wholly underutilised IMHO.

We convert 6 of those shots and win by a goal.

There's a few things that are worrying trends as others may have mentioned:

- The hard stuff has gone from the game. Where is the competitive nature? In the Essendon*, Freo, even GWS and now this, our opposition were harder at most contests. This is not how a club who has top four aspirations should be playing.

- I've harped on about it like a drunk sailor who misses his wife, and I'll continue to. Gibbs in the mid-bottom half of performers in the team. Saad made him look like a chump, but it's not just this week. He has a reluctance to go in at 100%, to put his body on the ball. He prefers the "safe" option, which includes self preservation. Gibbs squibbed contests in the Freo and GWS games, and he didn't go hard again last night. The coach should consider making an example. Gibbs thinks he's an automatic selection every week. Make him think otherwise. He should be one of the guys leading the charge. Sure Murphy got tagged out of the game - at least he went in trying to lay some tackles.

- One week Betts plays well, the next Garlett... what will it take for both of these guys to play consistently? Last night was their opportunity... And Waite unable to beat a spud like Blake after a week's rest?

- We really lacked cohesion in the back half, but I think part of this was the good coaching of Watters. He isolated Jamison and Henderson so that there was no decent third man up. Also the small brigade did the damage because we couldnt keep up with them. Saad and Milne and Milera... They were doing what our small forwards should have done at the other end.

What we're seeing is a disturbing trend where too much is left to too few. Simmo, Judd, old man Scotland, Robbo, Kreuzer and Murphy and arguably Walker (only 2 games in) give their all each week.

We could easily have been 4-3 right now because the Freo game was lucky to fall our way. 5-2 isn't a disaster, but more disturbing is the trend.

Right now if you're Adelaide, you're fancying yourselves next week against the Blues. Carlton are pretenders until they prove otherwise.

These were all during play. The Kruze tap into space plays to our strength, which we didn't do enough of. Centre bounces were not as favourable.

No..Hampson is not a KP forward. When will you learn that. Ruckmen are not key forwards. He's a ruck that rests there. Key forward is a different game. 100 years of footy had shown that.

You play Waite and Thornton as your key targets and Kreuzer with either Warnock or Hampson as ruckman, not both.

Before you to tell me to make up my mind, think first.

I hate losing to St Kilda almost as much as Essendon*.

Not good enough, it's as simple as that. We are desparate for some mongrel from somewhere, we looked very soft last night; it was almost a carbon copy of the garbage we served up against Essendon*. This has happened twice now and the opposition's tactics worked both times so expect to see it more and more. The coaching staff had better come up with something to counteract this.

Immensely frustrating to watch our inability to match the intensity of the opposition or even change the game plan up a bit.

I'm sick of yelling at the TV when I'm watching the Blues.

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It starts right, it swings back... WHAT A GOAL! Ohhhh you'd want to be on the Blues now.

Yep, I agree.

My point is, that it could be the rucks were following a plan at the centre bounces, but for whatever reason the mids were unable to fulfill their roles.

It is a problem, though, and hopefully it will be rectified soon.

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What did the TV do wrong?

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Ratten need to get back to the box so he can see what is going on.
Players need to worry less about their hair cuts.
Need to drop players who are gone lazy.

This season is looking far too much like last years. 5th or 6th is not good enough, and will lead to one or two key players leaving to other clubs for either money or to win a flag.

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TC suffers from the social media illness - the death of respect and constructive discourse by keyboard.

Didn’t sleep well at all last night. Still gutted and devastated at dishing that up in such an important game.

So much at stake and we failed miserably. We deserve any and all of the heat coming our way.

Judging from Ratts post game, I get the feeling he has backed our players talent and our game plan to get the job done.

So for me, the most critical thing is for a significant change in mindset internally with the coaches and players. They need to realise that currently they are nowhere near as good as they think they are.

The last 4 weeks has shown that you can’t just ‘rock up’ and win AFL games without the appropriate level of intent and effort. We are being monstered physically and really haven’t fired a shot back. Where’s the fight? Where’s the spirit? Where’s the combativeness? Where’s the pride?

I’m very concerned at how easily our game plan has been exposed. Can it really be as simple as hit in hard, crowd the contest, impact the supply and we have nothing? Scratching my head as this. Time for our well resourced coaching panel to earn their money and combat this. Why has nothing been done over the past 4 weeks?

We really haven’t shown much since the Coll game and have eeked out a couple of wins. Our clearance and stoppage work has been average to say the least and our contested ball leaves much to be desired. Even in the Freo game.

After the Coll game, I thought that we’d turn the corner and were a real contender. Now we’re back to being pretenders and I’m questioning whether we have improved at all.

Our deficiencies are nothing new. The players have to decide whether they are prepared to get down and dirty and work their way out of this. Or continue to be referred to (correctly) as physically soft and mentally weak.

The choice is theirs.

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We are on our way back...

MW was up for special cuddles last night but I was in no fit mood for anything like that

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Really no surprises with that performance.

Once again showed the problems that are holding us back, no it's not the coach.

Key factors

-Mindset, too flat too often. Not playing the precentages. Too lazy. No chasing.

-Soft, no other word for it. Essendon* set the tone, Hawthorn have done it to us for years, bottom line, we're scared and a statement needs to be made. Nothing stupid or "Line in the Sand" type all-in (Although it might not hurt) but at least show you won't be pushed around

-Talk is cheap. All week we heard about how filthy they were with the performance against GWS, we hear about "cracking in" and "raring to go" Who cares? Show it on the field!

-Selection. The same guys are going to be dropped and that leads to the complacencey. We know that Russell, Bower and Joseph will get dropped because they're always the first out (Along with Thornton). Bryce Gibbs needs to be dropped. His form this year has been poor. He gives us nothing off half back (no run), he never looks tired or spent like he's not willing to pay a price for victory. His disposal is unacceptable. For his last 50 games he's been cruising. Dropping him makes a statement and shows that nobody is safe if they don't perform.
Thornton is in our best 22, he can play both ends, he presents well and he's got good hands.

- Small things, A key moment in the game last night, Rhys Stanley took a mark on the 50 and Hampson told Judd to stand the mark so he could go to the goal line. Judd refused and stood doubled over taking a breather about 10 metres away. Not good enough from the captain and sets a very bad example. Judd was our best last night but no excuse for that no matter how tired you are. Small things that don't appear on stats sheets like standing the mark with one hand on your hip (Gibbs again), or running to close to the man on the mark when shooting for goal, point to a poor attitude.

Another concern long term is the lack of draft picks 30-70 from recent drafts who look like long term prospects. Our luck with the rookie list has masked some ordinary recruiting in recent years.

I think this is an over reaction saying he has been cruising for 50 games. So for the last 2 years he has been cruising? I disagree. I thought he was quite good last season, particularly toward the end of it and he was missed in the WCE final.

I just think this season he is disappointing to say the least. Maybe dont drop him this week, but he needs a talking to. Maybe a shift in position would be suitable for him. But there's no more excuses for Gibbs.

He shouldn't be in the "contributed" section of the team. He should be in the "won the match" section of the team with his other highly regarded team members.