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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:48 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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moshe25 wrote:
BrizzyBlue wrote:
Geez, you blokes are tough. I usually write topics for threads and go into minute detail. I am aware that I am long winded and often get accused of too much detail and many complain about the length of the post. I have made an effort to shorten my posts and you guessed it, someone says that there isn’t enough detail. Well !@#$%& me with a feather.


One point that has come up in this thread, both here and on the other forums, is that certain players missed x number of games, but would they have been selected if fit? I have gone to great lengths to research the ins and outs and the reasons published by the club. I have been able to get a reasonably accurate picture of how many were due to injury. EG: If Joe Bloggs was omitted from the team in round 16, but played in the Bullies, we can reasonably deduce that he was dropped. By the same token, if Fred Nurks was listed as injured and not available for round 16 and then returned via the Bullies in round 18; he is still underdone, but not up to AFL fitness. I have not counted these players as injured. In short, I have been fairly conservative classifying them as injured.


The following list is the games these guys missed minus the tune up games in the two’s:


Games missed due to injury:

Kreuz: 12 – inc Semi Final

Panther: 11 – inc Semi Final

Sugar: 10 – inc Semi Final

Jamo: 10

Hammer: 10 – inc Semi Final

Emu: 10 – inc Semi Final

Hendo: 9

Curnow: 9 – inc Semi Final

Carrots: 5

Rusty: 5 – inc Semi Final

Ellard: 3

T-Bird: 3

Duigs: 2

Laids: 2

Robbo: 1

:wink:

Sorry. Can you please provide more detail....


:lol: :sly: a diagram, or video presentation might help.
My brain hurts. :?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:59 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Appreciate the effort Brizzy but its a bit lost on me.
Perhaps if you could present it as an interpretative dance.......

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:03 am 
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Ken Hunter
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tl;dr
:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I think Rhino has a bit of a point here. Sharp statistical readouts are never going to provide a clear picture on such a broad question. In essence Brizzy, you have answered this question by saying "with a little more luck, we could have already won one!"

While that's a nice thing to hear, I doubt any of the people down at CFC being paid wads of cash for on-field results really want to be settling for an arm swing and an 'aww shucks' to describe their season. So why don't we look at factors that reduce the probability of poor match day preparations in the event of hiccups that inevitably occur throughout the season.

The idea here is to look at how comfortably we can call on players outside our 'best 22'.

Let's start with physical attributes:

Players significantly above average speed for their position: Judd, Walker, Betts, Yarran, Bower, Hampson, Garlett, Waite, Jamison, Lucas, Armfield, Joseph, Buckley, Carter, McInnes, McCarthy, Bell, Davies, Tuohy, Kreuzer
Total - 20

Players significantly below average speed for their position: O'Keeffe, McLean, White, Collins, Ellard, Watson
Total - 6

At this point it's important to note that while speed isn't everything, it is a factor, and something whereby we can regard our list as being positively skewed, with a number of players possessing exciting pace, and a limited number possessing concrete boots. I'm going to ignore agility and tackle breaking rankings as they are much more difficult to quantify and put down to a singular attribute as athleticism is not the sole determinant of evasive ability.

Players significantly above average endurance for their position: Simpson, Henderson, Kreuzer, Lucas, Collins, Bower, Judd, Murphy, McInnes, Armfield, Bell, Scotland, Waite, Davies, Thornton, Curnow, Joseph, Ellard, Carter, Carrazzo, Walker, Jamison, Garlett
Total - 23

Players significantly below average endurance for their position: O'Keeffe, Buckley, Watson, Kerr, Casboult, Bray, Lodge
Total - 7

Again, positively skewed, and little to worry about in the below average category due to the tender age of many listed.


Players significantly above average height for their position: Warnock, Lucas, Gibbs, Judd, Watson, McCarthy, Walker, Davies, Rowe, Mitchell, Casboult, Robinson, Carrazzo, Russell, McInnes, Bell, Bray, Henderson
Total - 18

Players significantly below average height for their position: Betts
Total - 1

Again, we are positively skewed.

Players significantly above average strength for their position: Carrazzo, McLean, Yarran, Betts, Laidler, Jamison, Duigan, Murphy, Judd, Kreuzer, Hampson, Curnow, Waite, Russell, Robinson, Davies, Joseph, Tuohy, Scotland, Rowe, Casboult, Bell, White, Watson
Total - 24

Players significantly below average strength for their position: Collins, Buckley, Bootsma, McCarthy, Carter, Bray, Dale, Garlett
Total - 8

Not a lot in the normal band, which helps offset the slightly high number of 'weak' players.

Players with significantly above average foot skills for their position: Laidler, Jamison, Gibbs, Yarran, Lucas, Simpson, Murphy, Henderson, Scotland, Garlett, Walker, Tuohy, Warnock, Kerr, Kreuzer, Bootsma, Buckley, Collins, O'Keeffe, Lodge, Watson, Betts, Robinson
Total - 23

Players with significantly below average foot skills for their position: Joseph, Duigan, Davies, Carrazzo, Casboult
Total - 5

Again, positively skewed.

Now let's collate that information into a few categories so that we get a sense of the quality of players on our list. Top shelf players will obviously have experience under their belt (I've set 40+ games as the criterion) and meet one of the following sets of criteria:
- Above average in 3 of the above 5 categories with no below average results
- 4 above average and maximum 1 below average
- The perfect 5

The next rung down that we'll want in the team contributing will have:
- Any who qualify for the top tier, save for meeting the minimum games experience
- 3 above average with one being foot skills, maximum 1 below average
- 2 above average with one being foot skills, none below average

Experience is also valued in the second rung, but less important.

If we can have more than 14 players in these categories, then we know on an average day we can beat just about any team with all 14 running around. If we have 20 or more, then we can beat just about anyone on any given day because we'll generally be able to cover for all but the worst-case scenarios. Within that 14 minimum, we'd probably want upwards of 6 in the top category I've made.

Again, note that my ranks have been about those in the exceptional category within AFL standards. I have done this purely through the use of my own judgement, and accept that there may be bias, but we can certainly discuss that and shift the numbers around in discussion.

Without further ado (denotes above average footskills for position):

First tier:

Perfect 5:
None

4 above average, 0 below average:
Jamison ('knock' is height)
Walker ('knock' is strength)
Judd ('knock' is kicking)
Kreuzer ('knock' is height)
Waite ('knock' is height)

3 above average, 0 below average:
Murphy
Hampson
Robinson
Yarran
Scotland
Henderson


4 above average, 1 below average:
None

Total - 11

Off to a great start, minimum met just in the top category and all bar one possess elite/near-elite foot skills for their position. For those who question my selection of Hampson, he's quick, he's strong and he's an above average field kick for a ruckman, as is Kreuzer.

It's important to note at this point that I have not properly graded football IQ, which would possibly have some of these players drop down and others rise up in terms of importance. It also shows how the strength of some attributes can paper over the poor or mediocre others that can sometimes prevent players from becoming elite despite flashes of brilliance.

Second tier:

4 above average, none below average, not enough experience:
Lucas ('knock' is strength)
Bell ('knock' is foot skills)

3 above average, none below average, not enough experience:
McInnes
Tuohy

4 above average, 1 below average, not enough experience:
None

2 above average, 1 of these being kicking skills:
Gibbs
Simpson
Warnock
Laidler


3 above average, 1 of these being kicking skills, 1 below average:
Betts
Garlett


Total - 10

So we exceed the magic number of 20, with an even split of first and second tier types. I think this helps reflect the increasing quality in our list, but obviously doesn't touch on the depth and potential we feel exists in the second half of it. This also highlights the potential of Lucas, Bell, Tuohy & McInnes. Perhaps another category to be included could be vertical leap, which would move Simpson & Gibbs into the top tier. There are plenty of names who are a shade or two off making this list, but the following are the notables:

Carrazzo, Davies & Joseph miss out as they miss out on the same category as Betts & Garlett due to a lack of foot skills despite 3 positive attributes to outweigh this flaw. This obviously fits neatly as a category for good AFL-level utilities. Armfield misses out for similar reasons, as while he has no knocks, he lacks the necessary combination of elite kicking, height or strength.

Ellard obviously has a knock for being noticeably slow for his regular position, but he also lacks a lot of stand-out attributes, something I have mentioned with dulling regularity on this forum. This is similar to Duigan, who is strong for his size, and actually has decent straight line speed, but despite his composure and intelligence in his play, can get caught looking silly given the narrow band of players he can compete with athletically.

This leaves Bower, Thornton & Russell. Bower & Thornton possess elite endurance for their size, Bower also having elite speed, and both have elite decision making skills in certain areas that push them into AFL ranks, but both lack that elite kick that could put them into another category. Neither have a knock against them, which holds them in good stead for regular football (more so Bower who could kick on in a couple of categories). Finally, Russell lacks elite level speed or skills to set him apart from the middle band of the AFL talent pool.

So what has this long chunk of text shown us? From a basic analytical stand point, 50% of the players on the list are expected to win their position on game day. Fill a team with those names and you have something special.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Stuff me dead, Jimbo. They reckon I write long posts! :screwy: :grin:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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BrizzyBlue wrote:
Stuff me dead, Jimbo. They reckon I write long posts! :screwy: :grin:

Well to be fair I've displayed my methodology, colour-coded the bastard then given a summary of results down the bottom.

Not that the selection process was overly scientific. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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jimmae wrote:
BrizzyBlue wrote:
Stuff me dead, Jimbo. They reckon I write long posts! :screwy: :grin:

Well to be fair I've displayed my methodology, colour-coded the bastard then given a summary of results down the bottom.

Not that the selection process was overly scientific. :P


As you know to write posts like either of ours, takes a lot of time and effort. Not always are similar posts scientific or factual, but even if based on opinions (gut feelings), credit should be due to those who take the time. What annoys me, is the keyboard warriors who just crap on anything that is written positively. The usual one word or one line response from the Negative Ned's, doesn't phase me, but it is disappointing some of the emotion that people pour out on these forums. I guess that is a sad reflection on the life of said posters: Nothing worthwhile to contribute! :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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September!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:54 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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BrizzyBlue wrote:
jimmae wrote:
BrizzyBlue wrote:
Stuff me dead, Jimbo. They reckon I write long posts! :screwy: :grin:

Well to be fair I've displayed my methodology, colour-coded the bastard then given a summary of results down the bottom.

Not that the selection process was overly scientific. :P


As you know to write posts like either of ours, takes a lot of time and effort. Not always are similar posts scientific or factual, but even if based on opinions (gut feelings), credit should be due to those who take the time. What annoys me, is the keyboard warriors who just crap on anything that is written positively. The usual one word or one line response from the Negative Ned's, doesn't phase me, but it is disappointing some of the emotion that people pour out on these forums. I guess that is a sad reflection on the life of said posters: Nothing worthwhile to contribute! :wink:


Brizzy, I could take the time to write a piece tonight on Global Warming. Unfortunately, I don't know much about it, and therefore no-one else would from reading it. I've tried giving you constructive criticism on where it could improve, but if you want to categorise it as keyboard warriorism so be it...

Interesting take too btw, Jimmae.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:22 am 
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Rod Ashman

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2012


Iran war


Carlton Flag

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:26 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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blueman wrote:
2012


Iran war


Carlton Flag


Right, so there is going to be a global war, and Ratts is now the new young coach is he?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:18 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Yes............!


kindest regards tommi

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:34 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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tommi wrote:
Yes............!


kindest regards tommi


:sly: Glad that's settled then. :razz:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Put it this way, if the Dawks could win it in 2008, so can we in 2012.

No surprise at all to see us in the GF this year.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Just saw big footy forum

How close is Carlton to a flag?

Not alot of love out there.

Have to agree with the more objective ones.
Break top 4 hoo doo (especially Hawthorn), make them worry about us.
Tall forwards need to stand up more than most.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:56 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Chris Scott is Geelong's new young couch - following previous flags won by Mark Thompson.

Port Adelaide look foolish in this - The selection of Primus and rejection of Scott was his lucky break.

As for Carlton - we may follow a similar pattern to that of Geelong, Thompson and now Scott..

I read somewhere that there have been 13 premiership winning first year AFL / VFL coaches.

So premiership winning rookie Carlton coach has multiple precedents.

In fact, Brighton Diggins was a rookie coach at Carlton in 1938,

Alan Joyce at Hawthorn comes to mind here - But does anyone know the others ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:44 am 
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Vale 1953-2020
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John Nicholls was one.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:55 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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David Parkin was one also.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:19 am 
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Rod Ashman

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moshe25 wrote:
John Nicholls was one.


Would have never picked it.
Does his wife know?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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That makes 3 blues rookie premiership coaches.

I wonder whether any other clubs have more ?

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