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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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That's decent of you to acknowledge the error Stephen. Unfortunately, I know of one long term long-distance member who won't be taking out a membership next season due to this. That might seem petty, but my thoughts are and always have been 'Players and administrators of football clubs come and go, supporters are there forever'. Or at least they should be.

The Audit, Risk, Governance and HR committee need to acknowledge their negligence by way of an apology on the Carlton website. This forum - while we welcome your input as often as possible, doesn't really convey what happened to past, current and prospective members.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Well, I'm not stripping.
Even if it is for the CFC.
So there.

And...as for the committee....
Never forget the little people. :smile:
Ok..or the interstaters.
Never forget. :smile: :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:26 pm 
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formerly Josh Kaplan

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A thankless task the life of a board member sometimes. I'd hate to think of the hours Stephen and the committee spent reviewing the constitution and drafting the proposed amendments.

I, for one, have been a member for well over a decade and never voted because the process in order to vote was both restrictive and time consuming.

The process is no longer restrictive or time consuming.

While long distance members are no longer able to vote, there will be a far larger number of members (like myself) who will freely exercise their voting rights following these amendments.

If the net effect of the amendments is that it leads to a greater number of members voting, the posters sprouting conspiracy theories about "vote stacking" come across as seeming rather foolish.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:57 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Stephen M wrote:
We were of the view that we should require a level of membership that was at least an 11 home game package because these members were more "invested" in the Club than say 3 game members and indeed the new "armchair" membership now available. Not only "invested" more from a financial sense but also in terms of attending games.


Stephen, that the board even considered a restriction of members voting rights I find problematic to begin with, but for the board to a) not to even consider any members beyond the Melbourne Metropolitan region; and b) feel that members who are paid up to potentially attend matches as being "more invested" in the club is bewildering.

It's easy to be "invested" in a club when you live close. Try living interstate, serviced poorly by television and radio on top of that. And then still forking out not only for your membership, but that of your wife, daughter, 2 nieces, etc. As well as contributing to player sponsorship. And then find that the board has its head so far up its own fundamental orifice that they're conceding massive marketing opportunities to other large clubs who we're supposed to be fighting for hearts and minds across the country.

For the first time in almost 20 years, I'm having to consider the cost of my membership, and frankly, some of the myopic and frankly stupid decisions of the board aren't helping any.

Maybe rather than feeling you know the member base, and supporter base of our great club, you come to some of the regional areas, and other states and meet with some and talk to them. Not only will you be surprised by the "investment" those members and supporters have in the club, you'll also be amazed at what some of those people have to offer the club. Next time the team comes up to Sydney, rather than the perfunctory whistle-stop Eastern Suburbs visits which are the norm, the club could invest in their supporters, and board members like yourself can do some real research, rather than make childish and ridiculous assumptions based on parochial prejudices.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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JK wrote:
A thankless task the life of a board member sometimes. I'd hate to think of the hours Stephen and the committee spent reviewing the constitution and drafting the proposed amendments.


5 people. Smart people. And they forgot an important part of the Carlton membership? And they want 50,000 members in 2012? I'd be measuring it in minutes. I think it reiterates that the marketing message doesn't resemble the actions of the decision makers. Everyone's got to be on the same page.

Not requesting a Sydney game is ludicrous in 2012. But the club obviously doesn't value that market, nor those supporters.

As for me, I've been an AFL member for many years - now of course with Carlton club support. For 2011, I took out a 3 game membership as well - I don't think I used it - but when I opened a form up from the club some weeks back, the club told me I'd been a member 'Since 2011'...wow...what a slap in the face. I wasn't old enough to vote when I became a member of Carlton. Now, in my late 30's, I get told I've been a member for 1 year.

Carlton is becoming a very difficult club to 'invest' in. You don't treat 'shareholders' this way - otherwise you lose them.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:18 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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It seems to me that if members really cared about the club and wanted to be involved their would be more than 300 attending the AGM (barely that many there last night) and the Club would receive more than the 800 or so proxy votes they received for the motion.


Colourman, Princes Park Whistler and I tried to eat all the sandwiches but the pretty waitress had a helluva time convincing us to polish off all the leftovers. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:23 pm 
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formerly Josh Kaplan

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Doc I have always respected your views.

The club has some way to go in areas such as marketing and membership.

But I feel we're slowly improving in both respects.

Apportioning revenue to account for on field and off field spend is never easy.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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Stephen M wrote:
At the AGM last night, I spoke to the motion to approve the amended version of the Constitution. I have also followed this thread but it was not appropriate to comment until after the AGM.

The Audit, Risk, Governance and HR committee was charged with the responsibility of reviewing the Constitution which was well outdated and deficient in a number of areas.

In relation to voting rights, the system under the old Constitution meant that less than 7,000 of our 22,000 plus adult members were entitled to vote because they had signed the acknowledgement by which they agreed to be liable for $50 in the event of a wind up.

The committee (comprising myself, Greg Lee, Ari Suss, Marcus Clarke and Jason Reddick) was of the view that the procedure was far too restrictive and not representative of the overall membership of the Club. We agreed that more members should have the right to vote. A discussion took place as to whether there should be any restrictions at all. We were of the view that we should require a level of membership that was at least an 11 home game package because these members were more "invested" in the Club than say 3 game members and indeed the new "armchair" membership now available. Not only "invested" more from a financial sense but also in terms of attending games.

Unfortunately, we inadvertently failed to consider long distance members. There was no conspiracy I can assure you. It was simply an oversight.

On behalf of the Board, I apologise to those long distance members who have lost their voting rights. Consideration was given to whether we could make a late change to the amended Constitution forwarded to members along with the notice of the AGM. Legal advice indicated that it was too late. Again, I am very sorry.

The Board will re-consider this next year and further changes can be made at next year's AGM.

I hope this clarifies the issue.

Regards

Stephen M


Thankyou for the response Stephen :thumbsup: Unfortunately if the club had consulted a bit more widely this issue might have come to light. Nor would it have been remiss to explain the reasons for the changes to those who aren't "invested" enough to be eligible to vote anymore. Social media has exploded for a reason, in situations such as this perhaps the club should avail itself of the new or not so new technologies.


Last edited by Belisarius on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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AGRO wrote:
It seems to me that if members really cared about the club and wanted to be involved their would be more than 300 attending the AGM (barely that many there last night) and the Club would receive more than the 800 or so proxy votes they received for the motion.


Colourman, Princes Park Whistler and I tried to eat all the sandwiches but the pretty waitress had a helluva time convincing us to polish off all the leftovers. :wink:


The poor long distance members now have to stump up the money to get to the AGM and an 11 game membership to be "invested" in the club :lol: You are a cruel man Agro :razz:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Belisarius wrote:
AGRO wrote:
It seems to me that if members really cared about the club and wanted to be involved their would be more than 300 attending the AGM (barely that many there last night) and the Club would receive more than the 800 or so proxy votes they received for the motion.


Colourman, Princes Park Whistler and I tried to eat all the sandwiches but the pretty waitress had a helluva time convincing us to polish off all the leftovers. :wink:


The poor long distance members now have to stump up the money to get to the AGM and an 11 game membership to be "invested" in the club :lol: You are a cruel man Agro :razz:



It seems to me that if enough long distance members felt so strongly about it - they could have used a number of forums (TC, Big Footy, CSC) to drum up enough support and send enough proxies to the club to defeat the motion.

I believe it's an honest oversight by the Sub-Committee on this issue and we should take Stephen M. at his word to see if it is addressed for the next AGM.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:44 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:20 am
Posts: 548
JK wrote:
A thankless task the life of a board member sometimes. I'd hate to think of the hours Stephen and the committee spent reviewing the constitution and drafting the proposed amendments.

I, for one, have been a member for well over a decade and never voted because the process in order to vote was both restrictive and time consuming.

The process is no longer restrictive or time consuming.

While long distance members are no longer able to vote, there will be a far larger number of members (like myself) who will freely exercise their voting rights following these amendments.

If the net effect of the amendments is that it leads to a greater number of members voting, the posters sprouting conspiracy theories about "vote stacking" come across as seeming rather foolish.


Yep that was a great move JK and not before time, but at the same time they have disenfranchised a number of members due to geography. If the aim was to get more members voting why not as Camelboy(but without the fee) suggested just have an opt in or out of voting option on your membership. If you choose to vote I think you might just be "invested" in the club rather than your level of "investment" being determined by a monetary or attendance criteria.

edit...The vote stacking issue was brought up by those defending the change and trying to explain why the change was made. If the club had used more consultation and actually explained why they were changing things "foolish" theories become less likely...although not out of the realms of possibility :grin:


Last edited by Belisarius on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 1:48 pm
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Location: Under the Earth`s Sun...now.
JK wrote:
Doc I have always respected your views.

The club has some way to go in areas such as marketing and membership.

But I feel we're slowly improving in both respects.

Apportioning revenue to account for on field and off field spend is never easy.
The slowly improving part is the worry.
I`m sure most supporters could come up with some great, low cost, ideas on how our club could improve.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:20 am
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AGRO wrote:
Belisarius wrote:
AGRO wrote:
It seems to me that if members really cared about the club and wanted to be involved their would be more than 300 attending the AGM (barely that many there last night) and the Club would receive more than the 800 or so proxy votes they received for the motion.


Colourman, Princes Park Whistler and I tried to eat all the sandwiches but the pretty waitress had a helluva time convincing us to polish off all the leftovers. :wink:


The poor long distance members now have to stump up the money to get to the AGM and an 11 game membership to be "invested" in the club :lol: You are a cruel man Agro :razz:



It seems to me that if enough long distance members felt so strongly about it - they could have used a number of forums (TC, Big Footy, CSC) to drum up enough support and send enough proxies to the club to defeat the motion.

I believe it's an honest oversight by the Sub-Committee on this issue and we should take Stephen M. at his word to see if it is addressed for the next AGM.



That would have been tough Agro. I'm not sure many understood the implications, as some of the other changes were well overdue. The actual voting membership is pretty low across all categories of membership and geographical locations.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Possibly would have been tough - but the point I was making was the relatively low number of proxy votes (I think about 800 in total) - you would have only needed 25% or more of those to defeat the motion (roughly 200 or so).

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:59 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:20 am
Posts: 548
Kaptain Kouta wrote:
Stephen M wrote:
We were of the view that we should require a level of membership that was at least an 11 home game package because these members were more "invested" in the Club than say 3 game members and indeed the new "armchair" membership now available. Not only "invested" more from a financial sense but also in terms of attending games.


Stephen, that the board even considered a restriction of members voting rights I find problematic to begin with, but for the board to a) not to even consider any members beyond the Melbourne Metropolitan region; and b) feel that members who are paid up to potentially attend matches as being "more invested" in the club is bewildering.

It's easy to be "invested" in a club when you live close. Try living interstate, serviced poorly by television and radio on top of that. And then still forking out not only for your membership, but that of your wife, daughter, 2 nieces, etc. As well as contributing to player sponsorship. And then find that the board has its head so far up its own fundamental orifice that they're conceding massive marketing opportunities to other large clubs who we're supposed to be fighting for hearts and minds across the country.

For the first time in almost 20 years, I'm having to consider the cost of my membership, and frankly, some of the myopic and frankly stupid decisions of the board aren't helping any.

Maybe rather than feeling you know the member base, and supporter base of our great club, you come to some of the regional areas, and other states and meet with some and talk to them. Not only will you be surprised by the "investment" those members and supporters have in the club, you'll also be amazed at what some of those people have to offer the club. Next time the team comes up to Sydney, rather than the perfunctory whistle-stop Eastern Suburbs visits which are the norm, the club could invest in their supporters, and board members like yourself can do some real research, rather than make childish and ridiculous assumptions based on parochial prejudices.


Well said :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Thanks for the explanation Stephen and totally understand what the board tried to do here.
I don't mind the idea of making sure only 11 home game members plus are only allowed to vote either.
For example - long distance members don't appreciate the MCG vs OO vs TD differences. They cannot understand what a "real home" social club means to members week in week out. Just 2 points I will leave this thread with.

ps. I've put my thoughts forward and will try to refrain from replying. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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AGRO wrote:
Possibly would have been tough - but the point I was making was the relatively low number of proxy votes (I think about 800 in total) - you would have only needed 25% or more of those to defeat the motion (roughly 200 or so).


As I said I'm not sure some would have understood they were voting away their rights and despite the Elliott abuses there is still a view by some that whatever the club thinks is the way to go. We are an apathetic lot :lol: . Wasn't the vote to oust Smorgo of a similar number, to votes in the Elliott days?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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SurreyBlue wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Stephen and totally understand what the board tried to do here.
I don't mind the idea of making sure only 11 home game members plus are only allowed to vote either.
For example - long distance members don't appreciate the MCG vs OO vs TD differences. They cannot understand what a "real home" social club means to members week in week out. Just 2 points I will leave this thread with.

ps. I've put my thoughts forward and will try to refrain from replying. :wink:


Why refrain Surrey? The whole point is to share views :smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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SurreyBlue wrote:
long distance members don't appreciate the MCG vs OO vs TD differences. They cannot understand what a "real home" social club means to members week in week out.


I'm not sure why long distance members can't appreciate those points, Surrey. You're coming across as having the same small-town mentality which led to the board under-appreciating a sizable chink of paying members.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:16 pm 
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Bert Deacon

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SurreyBlue wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Stephen and totally understand what the board tried to do here.
I don't mind the idea of making sure only 11 home game members plus are only allowed to vote either.
For example - long distance members don't appreciate the MCG vs OO vs TD differences. They cannot understand what a "real home" social club means to members week in week out. Just 2 points I will leave this thread with.

ps. I've put my thoughts forward and will try to refrain from replying. :wink:


Now to your point. I'm not sure those who buy 11 home game memberships but can't get to games will "understand'' either to be fair :grin:

To address your points, you would need to exclude all those who can't get to many if any games. I'm also not sure those who can get to most games understand the issues facing long distance members if you want to look at the other side...but if you are sure they can be trusted :wink:


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