When he looked at his opponents with those icy cold blue eyes most of them wished they were in another postcode.

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

No club has the perfect list ..... that is what you tell us.
Our coaches have enough to work with they just need to make it work.

Agro -Hampson would be rucking -warnock would have have won a free kick against glass -and you know the rest -robbie would have hit the post -

As for big nick have a look at 72 GF - where he played as permanennt forward one or two contested marks there

Agree they were terrified of nick when he stared at them with those cold blue eyes - saw a south melbourne ruck man literally running away from him at PP one day after he tried to molest nick

Dont have to look at it - I was there.

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Kruezer & Hampson need to demand the ball when playing forward. For mine this is the biggest problem. They don't play like forwards because they don't believe they are and are quite happy to play 2nd fiddle to Betts

Time for these guys to be no.1 & no.2 forwards. This means Betts, Gartlett & Walker play the cameo roles and complement these 2. It's about competing, making the opposition defenders accountable and snagging 1 or 2 while creating opportunities for the others as well.

I hope the coaching staff do work on our forward line over summer and come up with a working module for 2012 - this to me is the missing link!

Funny I always thought the missing link looked more like this:

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I know this is crazy, but I am really starting to believe that a Fev return is on the cards. There is noone else of quality out there, we definitely can't hope for a miracle and think waite will last the whole year, and if we want a premiership everyone knows we need someone up forward who can take a big mark, and/or jag a goal from 55.

Even as I read this it sounds ridiculous, but I have been thinking more and more about it over the last week.

_________________
Window = Open

Big Nick worked out stuff early on with his first coach, another ruckman/forward and astute football thinker. Doug Wade also used his big hips with great effect to put opponents off balance just before he took the pack mark. And a few other tactics like the Wade-Barry incident http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-read_artic ... ticleId=94
Saw Wade hold Barry's shorts, it was a fair free kick.

_________________
Bawditawaba

If it was that easy there'd be no need for KP forwards at all!

If it's a big pack, means the ball has come in slowly, so there won't be much space for the little blokes to work in and crumb. Be alot of opposition numbers at the contests. Opposition would also work out who the long target is and knowing the ruckman in the KP will drop it, it'd be run out and up the other end before you know it as they're won't be the same defensive pressure. So let's not put a ruckman in the KP. Put someone there who can mark. There's not that often alot of big packs these, smaller packs which the likes of a decent KP can mark well if they read the flight of the ball and use their body if into a one-on-one. Not to mention time a lead. While not a "gun" Thornton did that way better than any of our ruckman up forward. Showed he could read the flight and strong pack mark as well as use his body strongly one on one. Not to mention good defensive pressure. Prefer to use him well and truly in a KP rather than any ruckman for now until the next KP comes along.

Nice to have them bring the ball to ground but anyone can drop the ball and do that. I want someone who can mark it as well. Only needs to be a few times and it can affect the scoreboard. Makes those percentages better. Important there's someone who's capable of taking a contested mark because it's needed, especially in a contested situation like a final. A reliable "get out" target as it will be needed.

No rocket science in all of that either. People kid themselves if they think a ruckman is going to answer our KP forward problems. Very few ruckmen succeed as KP forwards, the odd one has but mostly it's an experiment abandoned pretty quickly.

You're right........its crazy. I reckon that Hammer will start clunking a few now that he's had the eye op

If the resting ruckman/third tall takes a mark and kicks a goal, it's pretty hard to run the footy to the other end of the ground.

There's no rocket science involved in that either.

In recent history, few ruckmen have made good permanent forwards and that is true. It is also true that the game changes so much in the last decade or so that rucks didn't rest in the forward line because they rested on the bench. Flooding and now the press and the possession game had killed off the long kick to position. The sub rule has brought it back in so most teams have gone tall up forward by resting their rucks there, trying only one ruck with a stop gap ruckman instead or having a very tall forward line if they can get away with it so they can have one more runner on the ground. Collingwood falls into the last category and were foubf out in the GF. Geelong have two with Ottens plaing forward as well and they also have a pretty tall forward line.

It will become commonplace to find someone who can take contested marks inside 50 because teams have to go long to go over the press. A player who can kick the ball accurately more than 50 metres will be worth gold on one side of the press and a player who can mark it on the other side will also be worth gold. The press will die out in its present form in an effort to counter a tall forward line. I'm tipping a return to one on one footy in the two 50 metre arcs with the rest of the ground more like a rolling maul.

Moore, Salmon and Ottens are the best I can think of but the first couple go back a way. Sandilands could easily do it. Jolly. Natanui. Hampson will too given the chance.

_________________
Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

He certainly might have 'clunked' something.

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/cele ... 1mfa6.html


Make sure we get the extra 56 games he needs for 100.

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Key forward is a skill on it's own. The best player to take a mark inside 50 is the KP forward.

In Hammer's case probably not many will be clunked, hence the problem IF he is the key target in the goalsquare. It's not as if we haven't noticed that a few times before. Many times! He has problems at the best of times let alone having the opposition FB on him. They'll work him out in not time. Play him in a FP as a resting ruckman when the focus of the main defenders is on the key forwards then he'll will be alot more useful up there. More chance of taking a grab then when not under pressure as the key target.

Salmon and Ottens are the rare breeds that can play both roles, as maybe Tippett. There's probably been the odd one more over time. Other's may have their moments when they wander down to the forward line but play them as KP forwards and you might find they struggle and see an excellent ruckman lose form. Go down there against top line KPD without the skill of playing key forward and you're likely in for a tough day. People think you just have to be big and mobile to play forward. The first mistake. As I said, it's a another skill again. People forget that. That's why you have specialist rucks and special forwards. Otherwise just recruit blokes 6 '9" ruckman and tell them to go to the goalsquare.

They'll have their odd days, everyone will get excited then they'll struggle for the next pile of weeks until the experiment is deemed a failure as it often is. Like being the Marcus North's of football. Former Roos ruckman David Hale learned all about that at North Melboune. Kicked 8 one day in Geelong and the Roos decided he was going to be their key target. He lost it so bad he ended up in the "two's" and traded. And he marks a ball way more consistently than Hammer ever will. Now as a ruckman and just resting forward at Hawthown he's much better suited without the pressure of being the key target.

Yes!!! One thing he can do is ruck even if he's not so good up forward. Hopefully he gets the games up somehow.

Clever way too of making sure a super model doesn't escape .

I don't disagree with that but I also think that it can be taught. If it is such a stand alone skill, why is Thornton being hailed for his season? Waite was a winger, ten a backman and now he is our FF. Jamo went forward this year and kicked goals out of nowhere. Brown (Collingwood version) was a bit player, couldn't get a game and all of a sudden is a key forward who rucks occasionally.
Hampson may yet be able to play a KF role. We have seen one example of his ability to lead out and take a speccy followed by a goal from 50. Yes, it is only one and yes, it also falls into your example of rucks maybe having a day out. But is may be a sign he can be shown how to lead and play the angles. He is still learning how to play footy. I wouldn't write him off just yet. We may have to agree to disagree on this one and see how things pan out over time IF he is played more in a forward role, which Ratts has said he will. Then again he also said we would be active in trade week.

_________________
Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Thornton's was a KP player in defence. Often KP players play really well at both ends of the ground for the same reason even if the roles are different. They're KP players, they understand the role. Comparing that with a ruckman going there is chalk and cheese. A ruckman's roles is vastly different. Learning to win a tapout and running round the ground freely taking the odd grab is a bit different to the skills of a KP player. It's closer to a midfield role in some respects, as Kreuzer's shown us sometimes, albeit a bit different to a smaller man's running role. As it is Hampson and Warnock are often criticised for not doing much around the ground when playing in the the ruck, so it's not as if they're even taking many grabs there. It's a fair stretch from being a KP player. It's not a matter of sticking a tall bloke there and telling him to catch it. not saying ti can't be done, be great if it could, but it rarely ever comes off.

I am with Jim on this one. Hammer is a ruckman. The theory that Travis Cloke, Drew Petrie and Jono Brown are tall, Hammer is tall and therefore he is one of those three gentlemen is not sound. And Big Nick was one of the greatest players ever to play the game and he was strong, a great mark and deceptively quick over 10 metres, like a rogue elephant except more scary. Not sure how he gets in this thread, he was a tad better than Hammer or Warnock. (And he last played 40 years ago).

Hammer has good straight line speed, can't judge a mark and has ordinary hands. He is very awkward when the ball hits the ground. He'll do okay when we play ordinary sides and the small forwards will run riot, not sure if he will do it in tight finals. Setanta was an average player but even his greatest critic must concede his recovery and balance were excellent. Can anyone see Hammer getting those passes away to Simmo and Elllard in the last qtr v WCE? One of the things that worries me about Ratts is that he seems to look backwards. Ruckmen as forwards doesn't work, forwards as back up rucks can work okay but usually rucks are better rucks and forwards better forwards. Hammer is a ruckman. If we play three ruckmen, one of whom (Warnock) is a knock ruckman who doesn't mark much and can't bust a pack, another who has skills to be an excellent ruckman (Hammer) but is awkward and has ordinary hands, what happens when the ball hits the deck? Do you reckon Hammer will be able to compete with Glass or Scarlett or various other good defenders when he is not taking 6 contested marks a game? Develop Big K and Warnock or Hammer as rucks changing up forward and on bench. Pump up Warnocks value and hopefully have Hammer develop into a big strong athletic ruckman and trade Warnock for a decent forward at the end of next year. All three can't play in the same side. Next year have Waite and Walker as key forwards and use their strengths, and at times have Big K or Hammer deep forward. But if we want someone solely to drop marks up forward we should have kept Setanta at least he had great recovery and balance.

Fair points, but Walker will never be a key position forward.

gerry, you put forward your case very well, but I dont agree with this point.

I've seen a number of games shift on the scoreboard and in momentum when you see forwards who cant ruck (lets say in this case Setanta), go into the middle and get dominated even if it is for 5-7 minutes a quarter due to the centre square dominance of the oppositions starting 4.

To me the reason why everyone is going around in circles in every second thread is that 'the forward for 2012' we are looking for is a) more than likely not currently our list considering that Henderson will more than likely stay back, Mitchell isn't ready, and there are obvious ? on whether it can be Kreuzer or Hammer b) isn't Setanta, c) isn't Fevola, d) wasn't available during trade week and e) wont be in the next batch of draftees.

So regardless of which camp a poster falls in, you can argue the case against someone else knowing that their solution is probably wrong, but forgetting that yours is more than likely not much better.

Off the top of the head Franklin, Cloke, Kennedy, Petrie are the big 4 that would make the difference, Tippett, Reid and Hurley potentially, N.Reiwoldt, J.Brown if the bodies are still capable. Outside of that I'm not sure if there is anyone else that would make a clear and obvious difference outside of what we already have to work with.

_________________
"They're [REDACTED]'