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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:51 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Also, Waite is a lot like Daniel Kerr.

Injured, does dumb things, sometimes doesn't have the discipline you want but then BAM , they are fit for a final and win you the game.

Kerr was the difference (well one of them) on Saturday and it's a 70% chance that Waite will be fit for next years finals and guy's like him win big games.


Absolute must keep.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:17 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Synbad wrote:
Blue Beatle wrote:
keogh wrote:
You cant win flags unless you have big marking forwards and backs

Lets hope that Mitchell and Watson develop quickly



forget them - on what i have seen (admitedley only on ABC games), levi is the man - hits the contest hard - one grab marks, something that watson lacks. no urgency in his game from what i've seen of him.

watson will struggle to play seventy games.
can't contested mark ,can't run can't bend down and hates body contact.
I'd rather mark Austin. watto just does not have the physical attributes to play the modern game.
give me Jack daring or issac smith anyday.

and th at has nothing to do with improvement. watson can't change his body to become afl athletic.


Fair go, the kid isn't even 20 yet and is asked to play on the biggest opposition forward every week and it's his first season on an AFL list and we're already saying he's goners?

Reserve judgement until he has another 12-24 months on the list.

I remember when people were saying Joseph was shit, Armfield was shit, Walker was shit, Hampson was shit, Warnock was shit, Jamison was shit, Henderson was shit... just about everyone other than the number 1's and Judd has been classed as shit at some point.

And now it's a 19 year old who is a target.

Fair dinkum.


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:23 am 
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Bruce Doull
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I don't think anyone is judging watson on his performances in the afl seniors.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:30 am 
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Rod Ashman
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And you're certainly entitled to judge him on what you see wherever he plays. Same with anyone else. My opinion is that when you add all the variables together, this isn't a 4 year 2-bit player. It's a first year apprentice.


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:40 am 
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Bruce Doull
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the modern game is about runners mobility and agility.
watson lacks the prerequisites to be successful go the modern game.
when the ball is bobbing around at his feet he searches for it like a blind man.
he can't close on a forward and gets turned inside out because his turning circle is wide.
I hope he can do it but very sceptical

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Synbad wrote:
jimmae wrote:
grrofunger wrote:
i just havent seen any other outstanding qualities

Reads the incoming ball well; reasonably quick in a straight line. Has shown a propensity to develop his 1-on-1 work and fitness.

He's not some uncoachable lump; he's a developing player.

everyone is a developing player Hartlett was as was Benjamin livingstone and plemming too and everyone else who has appeared on our list.
its about making it.

He's shown more talent than any of those names, and each of those names also got at least two years on the list.

Furthermore, he's shown marked improvement in year one. Let's see how year two unfolds, bearing in mind he's probably going to take about 3 or 4 to hold down a spot.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Garry Crane
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Are there any elite forwards available: Yes

Are they good kick for goal under pressure: Yes

Long kick: Yes

Great hands: Yes

Talent: Tonnes

Age: Has maybe 2-3 years left (coincides with our premiership window with Judd)

What draft picks would we have to give up to get them : None

What would their salary be : minimum rookie salary (maybe with team based incentives not individual).

Whats the catch? His contract would have behavioural clauses up the wazoo

Do we want a premiership badly enough to risk him? : ........? (no?)


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Gavstar22 wrote:
Are there any elite forwards available: Yes

Are they good kick for goal under pressure: Yes

Long kick: Yes

Great hands: Yes

Talent: Tonnes

Age: Has maybe 2-3 years left (coincides with our premiership window with Judd)

What draft picks would we have to give up to get them : None

What would their salary be : minimum rookie salary (maybe with team based incentives not individual).

Whats the catch? His contract would have behavioural clauses up the wazoo

Do we want a premiership badly enough to risk him? : ........? (no?)


Still no.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Robert Walls

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interesting watching clips of watson last year. there are a couple of games where is pitted against jack darling.

watson won out when reading the play better - a 'smart footballer' (based on video footage) versus a mobile/athletic footballer.

darling was the winner when competing body to body and on the lead.

I see the dilemma we have as supporters that only watch the game............he doesn't appear to fit the 'modern' mould.

clearly the recruitment team has a vision and is far more credible than I. No doubt it will be a journey....an investment.....and i say good on him, as a 19 year old he has far more time on his side than this 50 year old desperate supporter.


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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london blue wrote:
interesting watching clips of watson last year. there are a couple of games where is pitted against jack darling.

watson won out when reading the play better - a 'smart footballer' (based on video footage) versus a mobile/athletic footballer.

darling was the winner when competing body to body and on the lead.

I see the dilemma we have as supporters that only watch the game............he doesn't appear to fit the 'modern' mould.

clearly the recruitment team has a vision and is far more credible than I. No doubt it will be a journey....an investment.....and i say good on him, as a 19 year old he has far more time on his side than this 50 year old desperate supporter.

good luck to any one who thinks they have time on their hands cos one year is already over

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18022
caulfieldrover wrote:
Lets look at the options.

How many spots are available now?

Laidler Jamison Yarran

Duigan Henderson Scotland

Simpson Gibbs XXXX

Robinson Waite Garlett

Walker xxxx Betts

Warnock, Judd, Murphy

Kruezer, Carazzo, X, X

So there you have it, there aren't too many postions available.

We need an up and coming full forward capable of pressing, therefore sorry Fev, alternative is a CHF and Waite moves to FF.

Lucas could develop into being a wingman he has an elite kick, needs to get harder and fitter. While we wait for him, Armfield has the spot.

Russell needs to force Scotland from the team and get his spot back. Scotland had a great season, but is over 30.

Bench needs another big bodied midfielder. Kruezer is capable of Rucking and pushing forward, but isnt a KPP, so get over it.

So who is off

Houlihan
Austin
Kerr
Levi - just doesnt work hard enough, so he has wasted 3 years of our time.

Maybe look to trade, Setanta, Thornton and McLean while we can, GC or GWS need ready made players.


Scotland doesn't play half back. His role is defensive wingman which he plays very well.
IMO, Gibbs will take the role of defensive wingman and excel at it in a couple of seasons, once Scotland moves on or is superseded within the team. That still requires us to find a player to settle at half back. I suspect Tuohey is the man for the job. JR needs to develop more mental strength IMO to stop the fluctuations in confidence and form.

Lucas will hopefully develop into a good footballer but he needs to establish a role within the team. BTW, to suggest he is an elite kick is fanciful. He's a good kid who has plenty to work on but he appears to have the appetite for hard work.

Waite doesn't play well as a key forward. We need a key forward who can command the ball in the hotspot instead of leading out into the pockets.
As for good clubmen like Armfield, we'll know we're a contender when they can't get a game.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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I know he's a bit skinny, but is there any chance Pat McCarthy can have a go as an athletic marking forward?


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:07 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:42 pm
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aramari wrote:
I know he's a bit skinny, but is there any chance Pat McCarthy can have a go as an athletic marking forward?


Natural backman, plays similar to Bower, tall and rangey and likes to carry the ball.

Watched many Bullants games and not sure why Watto did not play forward more. His natural instinct this year was not to be defensive, hence he got caught out against many forwards. I think he would be more creative up forward and we could utilise his kicking skills.


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:24 pm
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Taff wrote:
Gavstar22 wrote:
Are there any elite forwards available: Yes

Are they good kick for goal under pressure: Yes

Long kick: Yes

Great hands: Yes

Talent: Tonnes

Age: Has maybe 2-3 years left (coincides with our premiership window with Judd)

What draft picks would we have to give up to get them : None

What would their salary be : minimum rookie salary (maybe with team based incentives not individual).

Whats the catch? His contract would have behavioural clauses up the wazoo

Do we want a premiership badly enough to risk him? : ........? (no?)


Still no.


Is he a team man ........ no

Is he disciplined ......... no

Follow instructions ........ no

Is he fit ............. no

Do we want him ........ no

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:26 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
You don't just 'move on' good players who are also sons of Carlton players.

Waite deserves to play out his days at Carlton. He has had a bit of bad luck with injuries and sometimes thinks he is his father and gets suspended but that didn't happen this year. He is one of the few players on the list who can dominate a game with his pace and marking.

If we were to 'move him on', we would not be furthering the cause of the club to get #17 in any way. The likelihood of getting a better player than he is for the assault on 2012-3 is minimal.


waite is a footballer like everyone else.
if we got what we need for him you have to look at it like we did kennedy who is twice the player and much younger.
waite has given us very little and is now coming to an end of his career.
why would we not put ourselves in a better position by trading him?

Because we wouldn't get anybody better for 2012. You mentioned Kennedy. You surely don't think that by trading Waite we are going to get somebody of Kennedy's standard. If we trade Waite we get someone of Waite's standard. We already have him. Clubs trade for specific needs when they are in their premiership window. Ours is opening. We need a key forward so you propose trading one of the few we have to get someone who may or may not help using the short term. We are beyond trading for a potential key forward. We have several of those on the list being developed. We need one now. Trading one away would mean we need two.

That's why IMHO, trading him would be a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:27 am 
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Bob Chitty

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Why don't we concentrate on a thing called development!! It will be the difference between the elite and the rest more than ever.


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:38 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Blue Sombrero wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Blue Sombrero wrote:
You don't just 'move on' good players who are also sons of Carlton players.

Waite deserves to play out his days at Carlton. He has had a bit of bad luck with injuries and sometimes thinks he is his father and gets suspended but that didn't happen this year. He is one of the few players on the list who can dominate a game with his pace and marking.

If we were to 'move him on', we would not be furthering the cause of the club to get #17 in any way. The likelihood of getting a better player than he is for the assault on 2012-3 is minimal.


waite is a footballer like everyone else.
if we got what we need for him you have to look at it like we did kennedy who is twice the player and much younger.
waite has given us very little and is now coming to an end of his career.
why would we not put ourselves in a better position by trading him?

Because we wouldn't get anybody better for 2012. You mentioned Kennedy. You surely don't think that by trading Waite we are going to get somebody of Kennedy's standard. If we trade Waite we get someone of Waite's standard. We already have him. Clubs trade for specific needs when they are in their premiership window. Ours is opening. We need a key forward so you propose trading one of the few we have to get someone who may or may not help using the short term. We are beyond trading for a potential key forward. We have several of those on the list being developed. We need one now. Trading one away would mean we need two.

That's why IMHO, trading him would be a mistake.



what are his strong points?
what are his weaknesses?

want to analyse waite properly?

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:01 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Pickle wrote:
Why don't we concentrate on a thing called development!! It will be the difference between the elite and the rest more than ever.


+ 1


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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:17 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Peter Foster had a bit to do with Watson at the Cannons I think? or school footy
He told my mate that Watson will be a player but not for a couple of years. He's very raw.

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 Post subject: Re: big blokes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:50 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
the modern game is about runners mobility and agility.
watson lacks the prerequisites to be successful go the modern game.
when the ball is bobbing around at his feet he searches for it like a blind man.
he can't close on a forward and gets turned inside out because his turning circle is wide.
I hope he can do it but very sceptical


The modern games changes every 2-3 years. It is constantly evolving. Pagans Paddock, Flood, Uber Flood, Forward press etc, etc.

Early call on a 19yr old Watson after half a pre-season and 1 year in the system but each to their own I guess.

In their first few years many said Dawes was a not up to it and Josh Kennedy (WCE) couldn't catch it in a sack. Now they would give their first born for either. Footy is funny like that.

Regards Cazzesman

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