Carlton bottomed out in 2002 but their 1st draft pick was 45. We had 2 x 1st round, 2 x 2nd round & of course Jobe as FS. Again the next year we had 2x 1st rounders & our second & 3rd round picks - Carlton had Walker then round 4 onwards. Its old ground but the idea that Carlton should be ahead purely for cyclical reasons sells them short & glosses over our issues & mistakes. Thats not doom & gloom, its perspective. We are currently behind them because they re-built better quicker & we have some catching up to do. We have a lot of potential which will hopefully see us pass them in the near future but I think its fair to say they have made better use of their potential to this point & developed more established players - not just their priority picks. Guys like Jamison, Garlett, Carrazzo, Joseph, Ellard & Curnow (was good before injuries) were all rookies & players like Simpson, Duigan & Betts were late or PSD picks. We have had too many misses in those years to have a side at the same pooint of development - not because they started sooner.

Again, this is old ground but I think its important to get a better idea of where we are actually at & why rather than delude ourselves that time is the only missing ingredient. As much as I & everyone else here hate the carnts, I think we can still be objective in our assesments.

I must be blind or completely missing something... but, don't the Bombers have plenty of Greek and/or Italian ("woggo", in case any BomberBlitz people are trolling and need a sensible English to complete fckwit dictionary) fans?

They're laughable.

I saw one thread where they were proudly proclaiming they have a better history, their club has more of a soul, .

I sat next to my brother's mate who pointed out a simple fact when Thornton outmarked Carlisle - Thornton is a 200 game player and Carlisle a 10 game player. Meyers is, what, a a 50 game player? In each contest the ball was kicked perfectly to advantage.

And this is Carlton's great problem.

It has no good, young key position talls coming through and is relying on ageing hacks like Thorton and SANFL/VFL good bodied players like Laidler & Duigan to take KPs or key roles (Watson tried & found wanting multiple times. They would have to play out of their skin to be beat the best and we are nowhere near the best.

Their list mgmt looks screwed and their list unbalanced. They Kane Lucas instead of Talia/Carlisle and that decision may be the one that prevents them winning a flag. I'd expect them to go after a quality, KPP big time this off season.

They may have pantsed us today but we have young, quality KPPs (Hurley, Pears, Carlisle & Hooker when fit) and a young developing midfield (Zaka, Melksham, Colyer, Prismall, Hocking) led by Watson & Stanton neither of who is over 26.

Their window is now & next year whilst Judd is still at the top of his game.