Setanta is not our answer to a forward target. We don't have an answer for our forward woes at present. Henderson looks to be developing nicely down back, and while he can be shifted forward, he is too young at present to hold down the role as key target at full forward. Walker is a medium sized forward, Waite is often needed in other parts of the ground, Thornton is a last resort, Jamison is needed in the backline and is also a last resort. Kreuzer is a ruckman who can rest forward, but he can take handy grabs.

We are up shit creek in the tall forward stakes. We desperately need one - and no, not Fevola. The club needs to target a tall forward and make it the utmost priority, because the window is opening and we certainly will not win a premiership without one. Whether its finding one in the VFL (ala Podsiadly) or any other state league, or throwing cash at one from another club, it doesn't matter. It is too late to go for one in the draft...we could pick one up but by the time he fully develops, the window will be nearly closed. The club need to do everything possible to make this happen for us. 2012 will be our best chance at a flag in so many years. We aren't quite there yet this year, but it's self-evident that a tall forward would complete our side and make us into a top two team, and serious premiership contender. The coaches would all be aware of this.

We play a small forward line and while it works some of the time, it does not work in finals football, and premierships cannot be won this way. If you look at premiership sides since 1999, all of them had a big key target. North Melbourne - Carey, Essendon* - Lloyd and Lucas, Brisbane - Lynch, Bradshaw, Brown, Port - Tredrea, Swans - Hall, O'Loughlin, WCE - Lynch, Geelong - Mooney, Hawkins, Collingwood - Cloke, Dawes.

The Bulldogs are the perfect example of how a predominantly small forward set up does not work in the finals. Good enough to finish top four, but not good enough to close the gap on the top echelon and seriously challenge for a flag. They picked up a tall forward much too late (Hall).

It would be one of footy's tragic stories if we let the premiership window close. The recruiting staff need to be diligent in the off-season to land us a key target. If we're serious about winning a flag, there is no other option but to find one.

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Premierships: 1869, 1871, 1873, 1874, 1875, 1877, 1887, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938, 1945, 1947, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1987, 1995.

"GIBBS."

..we have a bonafide target KPP in Hendo, but as per usual da blues like to shift 'em down back at the slightest concern [see whits, waite,hendo]..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

So who would you have played in Bower and Jamo's absence down back BKB?

We needed Setanta (or Fevola ... ) on Friday night.

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I am as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!!!

We had Laidler, Thornton, Watson and Davies to consider at that point in time.

I think we could have gotten away with Laidler & Thornton, with Duigan & Russell given license to chop out. Davies could have come in if there was concern over three tall options to take the lead-up target.

As soon as Bower was back on the track and fit, he shouldn't have been a sub; he should have been playing so that any question marks over playing Henderson forward were snuffed out. Undermanned it made sense, now it's just belligerence about giving certain players a chance to find form.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

But didnt Bower hurt his leg doing the extra k's after playing 1 quarter as sub. I think they knew he was an injury risk and got proven correct.

Henda to CHB has been a top move and will develop him into a better forward in time. He was hopeless up there this year and you could see in Ratts eyes and hear in his voice that he wasnt happy with his output in his role. Jamo showed more as a forward than Henda did this year. Henda is playing good footy and has his confidence back. It looks good for the future.

On friday Thornton and Kruezer failed us as forwards. Previously they had done well but with the Hawks slowing our ball movement we needed more from the big forwards.
We need a presence in the arc to draw the ball. Hopefully we can find one but i doubt it will be Henda this year.

Given that Jamo had been out for 6 weeks, that meant having your above players, chop out and all covering these forwards - Cloke, Hurley, Petrie, Watts, Pav/Sandi, Buddy.

Apart from the Melb/Freo game, your suggested line up wouldn't have been able to cope if the ball was being pumped down there.

We can't treat Henderson's development as a 'given'.

However, this whole idea about 'needing a developed KPF and needing one fast' thing could all end in tears. Players who aren't standouts can just become absorbed in our list and structure. We will start falling back on our past inefficiencies.

We can't make a tall forward simply for the sake of it a 'make or break' priority. Place immediate needs ahead of talent at your own peril. I can't emphasise that more strongly. It's what has made us slightly suspect in the first place.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Bower had played weeks of VFL prior to that, and it proves nothing unless they knew he had tightness going into the game. The fact that their sub policy is to do a few laps of PP to supplement suggests that they aren't getting creative with the sub role, or what to do with the players who have fresher legs because of it.

On the other point, I don't see how him being led to the ball is going to help him, when last year it wasn't a problem. The bloke just needs a little more faith shown in him.


My apologies, I also left out White as an option.

Do you honestly feel that Henderson did a good job on Watts, Petrie or Cloke? I don't. Regardless, you've just nominated 6 games in which we could have won 4 regardless, and lost another regardless.

I think Hendo could have been a boost to us in the North, Collingwood & Hawthorn games, where we lacked targets who could hold their ground. Maybe he could have done that, because he seemed to be doing OK at the other end in the same scenarios. His woes are mostly in his head IMO, and the coaches aren't helping.

Even Ratts has considered the possibility, as they shifted him forward in the Melbourne game, albeit for 20 minutes. Ratten appears gun shy, and doesn't believe he can do anything he considers remotely risky outside the pre-season. He's lost his willingness to give players licence and learn all aspects of the game, to more like systems we've seen Richardson develop elsewhere, where players are given roles, assignments and tasks, and to breach these is frowned upon.

People who have been on the forums for a while will know my views on that methodology, and IMO the verdict is in on that: it's a good starting point for integrating players, but they need to develop an edge to take their game and the team to the next level and they don't do that by sticking to their role.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I thought Bower play week, miss a week and then play a week in the Ants before the collingwood game where he was sub and then pulled a muscle getting the extra k's into him later.
It was a weird selection at the time. Anyway i am sure they were suspect on his ability to see out a whole game at AFL level and played him sub because of that. They were correct in their fears.

Bower needs to string a month or two of football at any level to start to rebuild his career in my opinion.

I agree....

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

..Bower's been out of the team so long he's not the auto 2nd KPD anyway.. ..at times either white or austin have been available, if even only briefly.. ..and thornton while being better than expected up fwd [standout game vs freo], i reckon with his ability to zone off and intercept down back is of better value than Hendo, likewise Hendo better value fwd.. ..there's also davies who could have been intro'd easrlier, or watson as well.. ..if he's good enough to have played vs the pies [x2], then there's been other 'easier' games he could have likewise played in..

..a hard working old fashioned CHF [like Hendo] would have helped us from breaking down [as often] across hff and deeper, which in turn would have prevented as many turnovers and hail mary bombs fwd which return with interest and catch the undermanned defence out of position..

..Hendo's game vs ess early in the year was poor MC decision, no need thinking of that game as proof he's better down back.. ..last year's CHF development showed his potential, also i'd say his 1st Q vs lions showed how much of an asset he is leading hard and direct towards our onballers..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

The game against Brisbane he was on a bloke that can hardly move. That one balances out the game against Essendon* when he shouldnt have played but did and played poorly.

He has looked real good in defense. He is fit and confident and his long accurate kicks out of the back 50 and attacking play has been beneficial to the team and our end scoreline.

We shouldnt panic just yet about finding a forward target. Its a shame Thornton and Kruezer put in shockers in that role last week but we have a number of options presenting themselves and a little bit of time to test them out.

Waite is the obvious selection for the tall forward role if fit- 16 goals from 12 games he has been the best of the talls

Our problem has been that the resting ruckman forward has not provided us with enough goals

setanta 6 from 5
Kruez 6 from 11
Warnock 4 from 17
Hammer 3 from 9

You look at the stats and say it is a no brainer that Setanta be selected but are you robbing Peter to pay Paul

Say we drop one of the rucks and replace him with Setanta what do we lose in the clearances and the tap outs - Games are won and lost at the clearances

Hit outs
Warnock 29.06
Hammer 20.56
Kruez 13.36
Setanta 8.40

Here lies the problem when you include Setanta as the resting ruck - he just sucks at it

I think they need to bite the bullet with TBird (although in recent weeks he was flying)and play either Setanta and the ruck forward or Hammer but what ever happens in the off season we need a marking forward because Waite struggles to stay on the park and since he has been out it really has messed with our forward structure because he provides the get out option he will lead and catch the bloody thing - TBird did this against Freo to perfection but was useless the other night - Can Setanta provide this option and if he does get the ball 60 -70 from goal will he use it history suggests he wont

2.7 followed by 6.1 has raise the eyes of the selectors but kicking goals against VFL defence is entirely different to AFL top 4 defences andif the 6.1 comprised of marks and set shots you would have to pick him but I believe only 2 came from catching it and the other 4 were off a spillage

I would hate to be a selector at the moment

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I was talking about prior to that, where he copped:

2 in the VFL
1 on standby
Another in the VFL (played through a knock on the day)
Started in defence versus the Dogs then played forward after Waite went down (88% game time)
Played sub against Collingwood (Watson got another go...)
Then injured running laps in the dark (what a surprise )

Then I think it comes into the sequence you're referring to. They were just having him sitting there on the cusp of the squad, trying to check some minor performance ticks off for him in various roles in the VFL and it hurt his progress. Player welfare: 0 - Ratten & co: 5 - Stupidity: 301

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

..in def, Hendo has won very few genuine one on one contests.. ....he's had a few kicked on him every game.. ..he's had a few very good pieces of play taking the game on.. ..he could be even more dangerous taking the game on from CHF though.. ..he's ok-good down back, but last year he was better up fwd, and now fitter and confident would be better fwd this year as well.. ..even if his opponent wasn't the best in that brissie game, he was leading strongly and marking cleanly with his hands out front.. ..good signs, would have gone on from there vs being shipped down back and having to re-adjust..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

He did play the Swans game at CHF and had little impact and then he played the first half of the WC game and had little impact before revealing himself somewhat a defender when moved onto kennedy. From there he played on a number of leagues best forwards and did well. Remembering Jamo was getting some kicked on him each week also.

Defense first.

I got my lead up weeks mixed up. Thanks for sorting that out.

Things are not stupid just because they are different to the way you want them to be. The club know more about Bower and his limitations due to injury and due to his skillset that you and i. A couple of weeks back you were having a go at the MC for not picking him. ALl along he was injured. Then you had a go at them for picking AJ and it turned out he is in fine touch and playing the best footy of his career. We dont have the info.

Your amazement that Bower running in the dark (as if that is fact) caused his injury is a little strange also.

IMO it would have been stupid playing Bower on Rewaldt or Hall or even Cloke considering how underdone and how long Bower had been out of the game. Also considering he had and still continues to struggle to string 4 games together. No way to build a solid backline IMO.

Watson selection against collingwood i agree was a strange one. I have some theories based on things i have heard on that selection but i will keep them to myself as they are only hunches.

I know I'm being harsh with labelling it stupidity, but there are some mystifying decisions being made.

Bringing in guys like Joseph & Davies were about adding yet more defensive pressure and backing their game to grow with more space and better targets to kick to. There are plenty of other names who could have come in under that theory, but we've ignored them over this second half of the year and left ourselves short-handed up forward regularly because of it.

I'm happy to admit they've been impressive and have definitely improved on what they showed last season, but against a finals quality unit in Hawthorn they looked very average. Would others have faired better? We don't really know, there are several players who have been ready to make an appearance that simply haven't, and there are others who have been shafted in the name of development or a marginal performance gain that could evaporate in the space of a couple of games.

And so began the tales of Bower, Setanta & Lucas' 2011.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

If Santy kicks a bunch this weekend then he must be given a go replacing Thornton (unlucky but not doing enough up forward IMO)