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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:00 am 
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formerly BlueRob
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Brett Ratten will coach us to our next premiership. Congratulations Ratts on your continued growth as an excellent young coach.

As for Malthouse ... if that happened ... I would spew up.

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Josh Kaplan wrote:
The problem is our ingrained culture of knee-jerkedness and our inability, as a football club, to swim ahead of the tide. This is something that can never be measured by wins and losses.


I just want to address this single point Josh made at the end of his post. So the discussion is a little bit away from Ratts and his future at the club.

But basically, AFL footy is now a game of intellectual one upmanship. Sides are so even, that any small break over the rest of the field may provide the basis for a premiership. If you look back at the Premiership sides of the last ten years, I think you can see at least one innovation they brought to the field which may have been the difference between a flag or otherwise.

2010: Collingwood... strategic innovation. Malthouse based his onfield plans around understandings of Roman battalions and the way they could often outfight the opposition despite being outnumbered. They also implemented the Arizona training program.

2009 and 2007: Geelong... really developed the football manager's role (or whatever it is that Balme is called) as a support structure for the coach. I think they were also the leaders in using Leading Teams (sorry if I am incorrect on that point).

2008: Hawthorn... scientific list management over a period of years at the foot of the ladder to identify the types of players on which to build a premiership. This dominated their drafting strategy. Remember, they were laughed at for taking Buddy and Roughy while the Tigers got Deledio and Tambling. Clarkson then also brought elements of waterpolo strategy to the game.

2006: West Coast... I'll be honest and can't say I remember their innovation here. But as a well resourced side, I wouldn't mind betting they were at the forefront of injury management.

2005: Sydney... Dave Mission brought fitness to the forefront, and injury management was top notch. They also implemented psychological programs designed to improve set shot kicking for goal. Plus of course, Roos implemented a more vigorous form of flooding strategy than had previously been seen.

My point is this... I see Carlton since Richard Pratt came back to the club as being great at following the innovations of others. We now have strong off field skills in fitness and injury management, and the resources to complement. We've also implemented an coaching structure that borrows from the successful strategic innovators of the last five years (Hawthorn and Collingwood). We've used Leading Teams, but only after others have done it.

So I would ask - as a club, what is there we can point to which is our own strategic innovation? Where is the march we are going to get over the competition? Premierships have been won in terms of game strategy, scientific list management, fitness and injury management, and leadership development. We've implemented similar programs now. But where exactly is the next break for the competition going to come from? And are we in a position to identify it and exploit it for ourselves? Because unless we are, then I would say the last five-ten years are showing us that premiership glory may remain elusive.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Molly wrote:
Josh Kaplan wrote:
The problem is our ingrained culture of knee-jerkedness and our inability, as a football club, to swim ahead of the tide. This is something that can never be measured by wins and losses.


I just want to address this single point Josh made at the end of his post. So the discussion is a little bit away from Ratts and his future at the club.

But basically, AFL footy is now a game of intellectual one upmanship. Sides are so even, that any small break over the rest of the field may provide the basis for a premiership. If you look back at the Premiership sides of the last ten years, I think you can see at least one innovation they brought to the field which may have been the difference between a flag or otherwise.

2010: Collingwood... strategic innovation. Malthouse based his onfield plans around understandings of Roman battalions and the way they could often outfight the opposition despite being outnumbered. They also implemented the Arizona training program.

2009 and 2007: Geelong... really developed the football manager's role (or whatever it is that Balme is called) as a support structure for the coach. I think they were also the leaders in using Leading Teams (sorry if I am incorrect on that point).

2008: Hawthorn... scientific list management over a period of years at the foot of the ladder to identify the types of players on which to build a premiership. This dominated their drafting strategy. Remember, they were laughed at for taking Buddy and Roughy while the Tigers got Deledio and Tambling. Clarkson then also brought elements of waterpolo strategy to the game.

2006: West Coast... I'll be honest and can't say I remember their innovation here. But as a well resourced side, I wouldn't mind betting they were at the forefront of injury management.

2005: Sydney... Dave Mission brought fitness to the forefront, and injury management was top notch. They also implemented psychological programs designed to improve set shot kicking for goal. Plus of course, Roos implemented a more vigorous form of flooding strategy than had previously been seen.

My point is this... I see Carlton since Richard Pratt came back to the club as being great at following the innovations of others. We now have strong off field skills in fitness and injury management, and the resources to complement. We've also implemented an coaching structure that borrows from the successful strategic innovators of the last five years (Hawthorn and Collingwood). We've used Leading Teams, but only after others have done it.

So I would ask - as a club, what is there we can point to which is our own strategic innovation? Where is the march we are going to get over the competition? Premierships have been won in terms of game strategy, scientific list management, fitness and injury management, and leadership development. We've implemented similar programs now. But where exactly is the next break for the competition going to come from? And are we in a position to identify it and exploit it for ourselves? Because unless we are, then I would say the last five-ten years are showing us that premiership glory may remain elusive.


Good questions Molly but with the greatest respect these questions were vigorously being asked by former posters over the last few seasons and being answered with varying degrees of sarcasm and derision by the majority of respondents.

I agree with the sentiment of your post and share your inquisitiveness as to whether we have a joker in the pack.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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club29 wrote:
I am sure if a club had a coach that won every game they wouldnt care too much about the other stuff.



I'm failing to see your point.
Are you suggesting we forget "the other stuff" and hope to win every game?

I'd suggest the better outfits concentrate on excelling at everything. Yes, even "the other stuff"

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Rexy wrote:
Molly wrote:
Josh Kaplan wrote:
The problem is our ingrained culture of knee-jerkedness and our inability, as a football club, to swim ahead of the tide. This is something that can never be measured by wins and losses.


[/color]


Good questions Molly but with the greatest respect these questions were vigorously being asked by former posters over the last few seasons and being answered with varying degrees of sarcasm and derision by the majority of respondents.

I agree with the sentiment of your post and share your inquisitiveness as to whether we have a joker in the pack.


As a now infrequent visitor to the site, I don't claim to know a huge amount about what discussions have or haven't been happening... and I'm not even trying to buy into that. I'm simply asking whether as a club we have the wherewithall to adopt a new insight or innovation that can propel this club to premiership glory?

If anybody can show me an innovation where we have or are leading the way, then I'd be very grateful to hear it!


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 11:58 pm
Posts: 4058
Location: South Yarra
Blue Vain wrote:
club29 wrote:
I am sure if a club had a coach that won every game they wouldnt care too much about the other stuff.



I'm failing to see your point.
Are you suggesting we forget "the other stuff" and hope to win every game?

I'd suggest the better outfits concentrate on excelling at everything. Yes, even "the other stuff"


That's the ticket - just win every flowering game. Coaching, training, teaching, management skills, leadership are just distracting details :donk:


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:01 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 9105
Location: Nth Fitzroy
Blue Vain wrote:
club29 wrote:
I am sure if a club had a coach that won every game they wouldnt care too much about the other stuff.



I'm failing to see your point.
Are you suggesting we forget "the other stuff" and hope to win every game?

I'd suggest the better outfits concentrate on excelling at everything. Yes, even "the other stuff"


Nah i am not sayin that. Nothing to do with carlton.

I am just saying if that was the case a club wouldnt care about that other stuff. Not for a while anyway. Until there was an Aus cricket style backlash further down the track.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 4919
Molly wrote:
[2006: West Coast... I'll be honest and can't say I remember their innovation here.

It was coccaine.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:50 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Molly wrote:
[2006: West Coast... I'll be honest and can't say I remember their innovation here.


JUDD

Omg!

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:07 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... 1ak56.html

Regards Cazzesman

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:08 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
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Is Caroline making things up again - Or have they committed to Ratts for the season


http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/b ... 1ak56.html

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:10 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Geez it's the quick or the dead around here - 1 minute :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:34 am 
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Geoff Southby

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''Whether we're 10-0 after round-10 or 0-10 we have no intention of deviating from that course,'' said Swann. ''We've assured him that whatever happens there will be no move either way until the end of the year.''


I don't know why CEO's and Presidents say stuff like that. The whole world knows that if we're 0-10, the blood will flow. That's the way football has always been, and probably always will be.

Of course, if we're 20-0 and Ratts says to Swann and the board that West Coast has made him a massive offer, I'd reckon we'd probably sign him up on the spot. So it works both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:53 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am
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What I don't understand is why Sticks and Swann are creating all this speculation. If Ratts is under pressure it should be on their head, they picked him. And regardless of what any of us think, he is there for the year and the prez and CEO need to support him for the year and not create unnecessary speculation. All the speculation comes from ill judged comments from Sticks and Swann. And for god's sake, let's ensure Sticks never makes a football decision at the club again. Can we just get a bit more professional off field in how we manage club messages and how we make decisions. Sticks and Swann create speculation, comment on the speculation then deny the speculation.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:02 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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I've had my reservations with Ratts, which I've expressed here (at length on occasion :wink: )

Specifically at our continued failures against the same teams in the same fashion (yes, I'm looking at YOU Essendon*).

All that said, I've never WANTED Ratts to fail and get the boot, who honestly wouldn't want a former champion coaching the team to the ultimate success? To me that's the ultimate result for a club.

There have been queries on the quality his support staff from day one - ill-informed or otherwise. Considering who he's got around him this year, to me it seems he's been given every resource required to take the team as far as he's able.

He's had two full years and three preseasons to get the team to Rd 1 this year, I think that's long enough now. Whatever decision is made will be made on a fair appraisal of results over three years. And if we don't get to late September this year, then I don't think there can be too many complaints that he wasn't given a fair shake.

If anyone is hoping Ratts fails, they're also hoping the club fails this year, and I just don't get that.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:21 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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JohnM wrote:
''Whether we're 10-0 after round-10 or 0-10 we have no intention of deviating from that course,'' said Swann. ''We've assured him that whatever happens there will be no move either way until the end of the year.''


I don't know why CEO's and Presidents say stuff like that. The whole world knows that if we're 0-10, the blood will flow. That's the way football has always been, and probably always will be.

Of course, if we're 20-0 and Ratts says to Swann and the board that West Coast has made him a massive offer, I'd reckon we'd probably sign him up on the spot. So it works both ways.


I think it's more an indirect declaration/clarification to potential candidates regarding the clubs' timeline.


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Swann and Kernahan have handled this appallingly.

Clearly went too far setting targets about our performance and are now having to back track.

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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TEN FLAGS IN A ROW............!


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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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gerry atric wrote:
What I don't understand is why Sticks and Swann are creating all this speculation. If Ratts is under pressure it should be on their head, they picked him. And regardless of what any of us think, he is there for the year and the prez and CEO need to support him for the year and not create unnecessary speculation. All the speculation comes from ill judged comments from Sticks and Swann. And for god's sake, let's ensure Sticks never makes a football decision at the club again. Can we just get a bit more professional off field in how we manage club messages and how we make decisions. Sticks and Swann create speculation, comment on the speculation then deny the speculation.



I think Sticks and Swan are responding to speculation not creating it

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 Post subject: Re: Praccy game Article
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:40 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Sydney Blue wrote:
I think Sticks and Swan are responding to speculation not creating it


Disagree Sydney. All the speculation has arisen from comments of Swann and Sticks re top four finish.


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