You make some fair points. But i am still not convinced about Ratts. Yes, we have made progress. We need to get the best available coaching department set in place. It goes without saying. Just don't want us to fall behind and want the CFC to be the leader in the pack and not the tail!!

I wouldn't have a clue about Ratts as a coach. Can only go by what I see as Joe Public. But from that perspective, as a leader, he comes across very poorly. Exudes self-doubt every time I hear him speak.

Got no idea whether he's like that behind closed doors, but it's patently clear he's been learning on the job. And he still sounds like he knows he's still learning.

If that's what he's REALLY like with the club and the players, then IMO it's vital for him to be shored-up with proven senior talent and a seriously strong coaching team who work well as a team.

Hopefully over the next few weeks, the club's appointments will make it clear to us what kind of direction we're putting in place. You'd have to imagine that the more respect the football community has for a senior coach, the better the quality of candidate you'd get for the coaching team. Perhaps the assistants we attract will give us an insight into how AFL insiders see Ratten, and the attraction or otherwise of working with/underneath him.

John, I totally concur with your thoughts here. Really good post. Thanks.

Agree with your post John. Ratts just doesn't exude the same authority or self belief that Lyon, Malthouse and various other top coaches do. It seemed obvious at the time, and remains obvious, that he didn't have sufficient experience for the job. Over the last 20 years when did an inexperienced coach win a flag? Clarkson is probably the least experienced and he had a lot more experience than Ratts. I don't believe Ratts would have been appointed if he wasn't ex Carlton.

However if Ratts needs to be 'shored-up' by an experienced coach, then he is not the man for the job. I am against bringing in an experienced right hand man to direct him. If he needs that he shouldn't be coach. The head coach is like a film director. You can have all the talent in the world around him, but if the director isn't up to it the film won't work.

Ratts has a year to go and he should be selecting and appointing his team. You appoint a coach on the basis of having absolute faith in his judgements, you give him the staff he wants and the facilities he wants and then if he is not up to it, you change and get it right the next year.

I am not sure Ratts is the man, but any appointments foisted on him by the board or the admin will hinder rather than help.

Also concerned about what Josh K is saying. Josh seems to know people close to the admin/board and if he is worried - that is a worry!

I know I'm up against the double act of Doc and Cazzes, but all I'm advocating is the same thing I've said all along. Get the best team of coaches available. Essendon* are leaving no stone unturned in their search for the best 5-6 coaches to develop their young list. All I'm asking is for the same from our mob. So far, our impending appointment of Barker leaves me completely uninspired. Our attitude of playing wait and see to Essendon* and their coaching search makes me nervous. Why aren't Essendon* waiting and seeing what we do? Why do they get first dibs on Laidley Williams Richardson Goodwin etc etc. Where are we in the picture? Are we underestimating how important this task actually is?
You guys can paint me any way you like and continue with your mantra of believing that those in charge will get the job done for us. I wish I shared your faith, and would love to be proven wrong.

A mate; who is in the know at Hawthorn; told me a month ago that Barker ''is bloody hopeless and on the skids at Hawthorn''

Now....we've appointed him as Coach of our forwardline....do we know more than them?

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Agree. We seem to be languishing way behind. Bummers look like getting Thompson, and maybe Laidley, and who do we swoop on.......Barker

Why replace duds with more duds ?

We've got $$$$$ and are supposed to be a successful and powerful club, so why don't we go and buy someone decent.

as another joe public, i suspect that since Williams, Laidley and Richardson all went for the top job at Essendon* we had little choice but to "wait and see".

Carlton now has the opportunity to make a big play for some / all of that trio. Unfortunately, we will have to deal with the excitement the scum is generating from their "dream team" ticket and the fact that their war chest is probably bigger than ours.

not landing Goodwin was a big disappointment IMO. i imagine him having to decide between:
- our pitch consisting of reasonable money + ratten (who may be gone in 12 months) + riley + barker + ummmm ... dunno yet.
- scum pitch consisting of more money + hird + williams / laidley + wallis + richardson + bomber thompson + stability + anzac day etc

of course i'd choose Carlton's offer, but then i'm a blues tragic ...

We may now be forced to endure another "wait and see" period given the likelihood of a vacancy at the cattery ...

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

Happy to hear both Joshs points, and also Doc and Cazzes side.

At the end of the day this is just a forum.
If you feel strongly, then turn up to the AGM, talk to the officials, get involved.

Personally I am prepared to wait and see who Ratts gets on his team and how they help improve our club.
But if Ratts is stuffing up the process, and we need to start from scratch again in a year or two years time, then it will definitely flower up our development and premiership window.

It's so crucial to get these things right - probably more so than the kids we draft.

That's a good point.

An assistant coach would be looking for a bit of security of tenure. And with there being no certainty that Ratts will be at Carlton beyond 2011, you're certainly not getting that.

The first thing a new senior coach does is revamp his assistants. Go to the scum under Hird, and you're signing on to a team that'll be in place at least 3 years.

At Carlton... who knows?? Imagine you're Dean Laidley and Carlton offered you a gig. You'd be thinking... "ok, so what happens if Ratts gets the arse at the end of the year and they bring in a Malthouse? Well, I reckon I'd be about as welcome as a T-bone at a vegetarian banquet."

I'm not surprised, for a couple of reasons, that we're not top of the list of potential candidates.

Josh, a few weeks ago when I mentioned Goodwin you asked why would just target him and not go through a process?

As for Hird I'm a fan, but imagine the outrage if we just plucked an ex-player with no coaching experience and gave him 4 years as coach.

Goodwin also has no experience, but a massive price on his head and has got the role. How many applicants did they go through before appointing him?

I thought everyone on here wanted experience in the box.....but if we do go for that then they'll be others claiming that Ratten should need to have his hand held after 3 and 1/2 years.

Anyway enjoying the debate. Both sides making good points. I'm not even in Joe Nobody's league when it comes to inhouse matters, so carry on.....

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"They're [REDACTED]'

Or perhaps Laidley would be thinking if Ratts get the chop in 12 months, he would be in a great position to be a senior coach again.

I really think everyone is reading too much into it. If Carlton really likes Barker then good luck to him. The assistant coaches Ess are getting together is no big deal. Who said they will be successful? How do people know who is the right man for the job at Carlton?

Sit back, relax and don't let these so called big names going to Ess worry you.

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Koperek.

The problem is this Josh..........................who is the best........................are they the best because you say so or I say so or the Dr says so. Or are they the worst because a mate of a mate of a mate at the Hawks says so.

What does anyone here on TC really know about John Barker. I mean really, really know if he can Coach or what he does at the Hawks?

3 yrs ago everyone wanted Voss. Not anymore. Stealth is concerned now because Hirdy sounded good at his 1st stage managed presser.

Malthouse has just as many knockers as those in his corner. People seem to forget he has already been given his marching orders by Big Eddie at the end of 2011 win, lose or draw again.

Some want Goodwin. Why? Based on what? People want Peter Dean. Based on what. The Dogs aren't exactly the defensive team of the century.

And so it goes on and on and on. Hang shite on Barker, hang shite on Ratts.

The classic comments out of all this come from the ones who are worried that the Bombers will be an instant force if Williams joins him to guide him. And yet if Ratts has Williams or Laidley to help him out then Ratts is seen as 'not good enough to be Head Coach'.

Being a fickle SEN listener doesn't even come close to many couch supporters on TC.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

I don't think you'd get many arguments from anyone with this post Josh. I want the best coaches available as well. Essendon* just appointed the Prahran Under 9's coach. Does he understand football? Of course he does...but life is very different in the coaches box as he's soon to discover - so I'm less than convinced they've 'left no stone unturned'. If I were Dean Laidley or Mark Williams, I'd have no hesitation in telling Essendon* to @#$%&! off. If you call that a 'process' you've got to be dreaming. With regard to Simon Goodwin - he's chasing cash. I dare say we offered him the 'Harvey' role with same remuneration. The Bombers are throwing plenty of cash at their coaching panel.

The exodus of coaches should be recognition that we need more expertize in these areas. Lappin and Montgomery had their deficiencies. Harvey was like a work experience kid in Year 1 and whilst better in Year 2, was superfluous to our needs with Ratten, Riley, Bradley and Harris all more experienced in midfield coaching.

As for John Barker, I haven't commented on him yet. I was disappointed that Carlton let Simon Lloyd slip through the net to go to Freo. I'm convinced he made the world of difference to them this year. I rate Mark Neeld highly. I don't rate Mark Williams. Dean Laidley has a permanent chip on his shoulder. Peter Sumich would fit right in as a forward line coach, but seems to be chained to Perth. Chris Scott would be a beauty. Problem is with Neeld, Sumich, Scott is that they're all seeking a top job somewhere. And if you aren't seeking the top job, then questions are asked of you as to if you're fully committed to coaching in the AFL.

I'd suggest guys such as Blake Caracella and Ross Smith are prime examples of assistans not craving the top job. John Barker might fall in that category as well. That he's spent time under Ross Lyon and Alistair Clarkson can only be a positive. Other than that, I don't know much about him and I dare say most on internet forums don't either.

Well, just to burst Essendon*'s bubble a bit, it seems Thompson is not going to Essendon*.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/bomber-thompson-set-to-quit-ast-geelong-coach/story-e6frf9jf-1225930803947

But then again, it is the HUN, so that probably means he's a lock for the scum.

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I would like to thank Collingwood for helping me keep faith in my old man. He always told me that 'People are thick'.

Interesting sentiments by the both of you and I don't feel were necessarily too far removed from each other insofar as our overall contention is concerned (ie: require an overhaul of our coaching department, and need to source the best available.)
One key stumbling block is the uncertainty of tenure of our senior coach which is probably going to make life difficult when it comes to signing assistants.
Still feel it is somewhat sobering with the key drivers of the on field direction of the club being Messrs Ratten, Reilly and Barker. Also essential the club indicates to the supporter base where they think our improvement will come from next year and how they are going to ensure that improvement comes about in the off- season. I agree its not panic stations yet, but this 2010 off season is club and culture defining.

He's not going to Essendon*, he's burnt out apparantly and might not be coaching anywhere.

I'm also a bit bemused by all the hoopla surrounding Hird and Essendon*. Having a first year coach go straight into the senior role has potential disaster written all over it like the Voss situation in Brisbane.

I don't reckon the Bombers will be an instant force, I think they are mad to appoint a coach who has no experience and I think MArk Williams has run his race and appointing a senior coach, with senior senior coach is a coach too many. If Ratts needs an experienced coach to guide him then he shouldn't be head coach he should be an assistant, and isn't it a pity he didn't have more experience as an assistant and then this head coach with an experienced coach to guide him scenario wouldn't be an issue. if Ratts is good enough to be coach he needs his own team which he picks. I presume that's what he did have and now he is changing. I too know nothing about John BArker. Not sure how much anyone at Carlton would know about him either. Again if you have so much inexperience it also hurts when you are picking assistants because all you know really well are those you've coached with (Riley) or those you have played with (the rest).

Having said that, the coach must be given full authority to pick who he wants and not have a senior coach appointed to assist him. If he didn't need that when we appointed him, why does he need that now. If he did need that when we appointed him, why did we appoint him?

I love Brett Ratten and hold him in the highest esteem as a player and as a coach I applaud the improvement he has made to this team that I love.

However at the end of the 1980 season Carlton made a ruthless and very tough decision in giving the sack to a Coach who was 4 time premiership player and very loyal servant to the club in Peter Jones.

We appointed David Parkin to the position and the rest is history.

Carlton have never been much good at selecting coaches via a "process" - Barassi was appointed, Nicholls was appointed, Jesaulenko was appointed, Parkin was appointed, Walls was appointed - and all these coaches delivered premierships to us.

If Pratt was alive I am sure we would be considering our coaching position right now.

Its time to get ruthless again and do what we need to do to take us to the next level.

Time bring Paul Roos' appointment as Senior Coach of the Carlton Football Club one year forward.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I heard Brian Cook's presser this arvo; and Mark Thompson is definitely NOT going to the Bombers; and is likely to have 3 months off after the draft.....Geelong hope to retain him; but apparently he is ''exhausted after 11 years in the job''

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.