..they fluked it with Staker, if he played that well for the eagles they would have held onto him.. ..
jury still out on him i reckon, he could just be having a good year cos he switched clubs.. ..call it the Teague factor.. ..we'll see if he backs it up next year..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

maybe we look at jackson trengrove from port? 196cm 94kg
jacobs plus walker/thornton/bower and our second pick?
then our first pick can be a key forward, josh walker/lucas cook/tom lynch etc
he is a vic boy and kane lucas lives with he's parents.
we will have to give up something worth while, hench the names above, just a thought

I know a lot of people get easily excited when it comes to trade discussion and cannot be realistic with swap particulars but port will not be offering Trengove for trade.

They will not be trading down a ruckman to get Jacobs.

If it is port it will involve other players/picks. It wont be Trengove. Otherwise carry on...

_________________
C'mon Blueboys!

That's simply not true.

He hasn't strung high quality games together yet in his career (yes he's had the odd exceptional game), and frankly the last couple of months he has been woefully inadequate with ball in hand, and has been monstered the vast majority of one on one contests he's found himself in.

I am a fan of his, but let's be realistic. Right now he probably shouldn't be in the 22. He's a liability. How many times is he going to run off the mark with absolutely no idea of what he's going to do, get cornered, drop a helicopter hand ball at the feet of a stationary teammate for a turnover and goal. If this is happening because he's not fit, then drop him and bring in Thornton. Because honestly, Thornton would be a less negative proposition for us right now than Bower.

Is Trengove contracted next year? Does he have a desire to get back to Melbourne? If he isn't and he does then Port won't have a choice but to trade, maybe not with us but someone.

_________________
"I will rejoice in their anguish, delight in their failure and revel in our success"

We are Carlton, @#$%&! the rest !!!!!!

Hence why he said his season has been ruined by injury.

Look back to the second half of last season, his form was of a high standard and consistent. Most importantly we were playing with 2 tall defenders only with Waite and Jamo out.

_________________
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Maybe our definition of gun is a little different.

I would like a player to at least be at least mentioned in an All Australian discussion before I would consider him a 'gun'. Or if not that, then at least something to show that a consistent level of performance has been achieved for a season or two when some opposition planning has gone into the player and they've had to respond.

Making excuses for injuries etc... Jesus. Is he really at the level where he should be playing if not fit, when Thornton is in the seconds? I really don't care what the problem is with ratts and Thornton, if thronton is fit, and Bower is not, then drop Bower. He's a liability right now.

It's bloody September, and a prelim final is not out of reach if we get our act together.

Bower's numbers last yr and even early this yr were very, very good, but I think his re-bound game is better than his pure stopping game, ie: he is not a big defender, not the gun CHB we are after. He is a excellent 3rd tall down back who provides re-bound and run and carry. Just take a look at him - 5 yrs in system and still a skinny tall. He is not a big bodied key defender

He is also terribly out for form and arguably shouldn't play ahead of Thornton in the first final, but then Bower's 2nd half last weekend was better and I think Ratts and MC are just hoping he can find touch in time

Tough call, if they keep him in this weekend and he stuffs up horribly then it is the MCs fault as much as Bowers fault

_________________
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Good call on our definition being different. I probably should say I believe he has the capability to be a gun CHB and that he showed the glimpses last season.

His ability and willingness to run and take the opposition on have him ahead of Thornton even if he is struggling in the one on one battles.

_________________
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

The opposition realise Bowers strengths and weaknesses. They're happy to drag him back to the square and isolate him with his opponent. They also get the added bonus of reducing his run and drive.
As far as I'm concerned, if they're putting time into reducing his effectiveness, he must be doing something right. Our challenge is to have him playing the game on our terms, not the oppositions. He should stay out at CHB and the other backs should work together to pick up his man if he drops back. You dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, he still lacks in the strength stakes but his run and carry is pivotal to beating the opposition zone/press. Talk of dropping him or getting someone else is very premature IMO.

Hopefully Ratts uses his smarts and places Bower where we get value from him instead of giving up.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Bower is a loopier version of Harry O'Brien.

All arms and legs running around like a chook with his head cut off.

O'Brien runs like a straight chicken and I don't mean (heterosexual)....cue response

In my opinion the discounting of Carlos as a KP defender is premature.

His development has been stifled by constant movement through various positions until he found a home (that I never agreed with) in the forward line. He has proven himself against big bodied mobile forwards in the past when he was very raw, and now I believe with his time in the system and especially his experience as a forward he would have a better understanding of the game and how the ball will be delivered from the midfield.

He has leaned up (too much) this past year, so a big pre-season building up again should give us an answer to the opposition gorillas. Sticking to a man and being given the more basic job of beating his direct opponent will help him as well. His undeniable competitive spirit and good ground level ability are further bonuses to use against the big power forwards.

We seem to forget that he had excellent games on star forwards such as Lloyd and Pavlich....and now he would be even better.

Also I believe that with White and especially Austin we have young KP stocks to develop.

I don't know, saw him get exposed against Tigers last year - has no nous for staying with a key fwd who is on the lead

If he was a god defender he would be played there IMO

_________________
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

I agree that he has the capability.

I don't agree that his willingness to run etc should have him in ahead of Thornton. If he's doing that and turning the ball over (which he does far too regularly at present), he's far more damaging to us than a sideways kick which maintains possession. We get creamed on turnovers because we're turning the ball over in dangerous places. Bower has plenty to answer for in that regard. Holding the ball, poor turnovers by hand/foot, you name it.

As a future player, I still like him a lot. But now is not the time for a hope that he can turn things around. We've got a final to win.

..i don't think that's what is happening.. ..i think rather than dragging Bower deep to reduce his effectiveness, opposition coaches have targeted him as out of form, and they play through him.. ..he's a defender, and first priority is to stop his opponent.. ..run and carry is secondary to that.. ..no point hanging onto him to run the ball out of defence, if he can't stop his opponent from marking the ball in the first place..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Ever had a close look at the Collingwood defense. Maxwell, O'Brien, Shaw and even Goldsack? I would argue their first priority is to win the ball, and the second is to merely stop their opponent. Both are needed. Both are important. And the best defenders can do both.

I think Bower will be one of the best defenders we've had since SOS, even if he's not at the peak of his form at the moment. FWIW, I think it would help if were playing another defensive tall. And if we played 'team defence' a whole lot better.

OK so you saw him play one bad game.........guessing that Jamo, Bower and T-Bird have never been taken to the cleaners either??

It amazes me that people can judge on one bad performance with Carlos and conveniently forget the times that he actually had success. All defenders have been found wanting and I am suggesting that Jamo and Bower have been found wanting several times this year. They get pushed around far too easily and are exposed one on one.

Personally I'd have Carlos as CHB where his speed and mobility can also be an asset going forward. He just needs the support of the coach and his team mates to play him there.

How many bad games have you seen him play at CHB?

Collingwood and St Kilda's defenders individually on paper arent that great. They hold up well though because the defence, and the whole team, play as a unit and apply defensive pressure all over the ground.

_________________
Carlton Premiers '10

I think a lot of people may be surprised with Cacchia next year. Another preseason and I think he could be that inside midfielder that the team needs. However that doesn't get away from the fact that we also need a key position defender a key position forward and a long kicking half back flanker with good decision making skills.

IMO Bower is more a third tall and not suited to playing on the bigger bodied key forwards. His game is to run and carry and attack. Jamieson is more of a stay at home defender doesn't get a lot of the footy but keeps his opponent honest.

Now if we are to trade a ruckman to either the Gold Coast or one of the SA teams I would want either an early draft pick (Gold Coast) or a key position player (Talia or Butcher). Obviously we have a player type (ruckman) that those teams need while they have either a lot of early draft picks or young key position players in their teams at present and young KPP in their reserves. Could be a win-win if we can trade and also manage to get another key position player with our first draft pick at 19 or 20.

..bingo..!!.. ..IF you can isolate the pies defenders and get one on one match-up's, you'll see they can be vulnerable.. ..ditto saints defenders..

_________________
..if you can't be good, be good at it..