Carlton should heed Geelong's terrible example (From The Age, not sure who wrote it?)
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/c ... 11asd.html

Discuss.

not much to disagree with in theory.

the only question, is ratten up to it/the players up to it.

thats where the gamble lies.

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

Not having Henderson in the lineup shows just how lacking in knowledge the "journo" is.

_________________
"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

The old Bomber Thomson argument again, which roughly goes that if you keep a coach for 8 years, no matter what, you will become Geelong. Why doesn't anyone use the Terry Wallace, Danny Frawley arguments? Did they only fail to turn the Tiges into Geelong because they only had 4 or 5 years? This article is good in that it is one of the few that attempts any sort of analysis and research. (Apart from Jordan Russell's draft number). And there is no doubt you need experience, but how much experience did the Hawks have in 2008, where were the Cats in 2003-5? Happy to give Ratts next year as we prematurely extended his contract to then. But you don't blindly give every coach 7 years in the expectation that you will be Geelong. The notable things with Geelong is that they have two gun father son players, they have drafted well deep into the draft. And they have had drafts where they have picked up a number of very good players - 1999 Ling Chapman, Corey Enright. What draft in the last ten years have we picked up 4 players anywhere near that quality? Only very broadly can Geelong be compared top other side. What about the Saints? Their side mainly dates form this millenium. They include similar numbers of high picks, but then they have about 16 players who are rejects or duds.

You judge a coach on improvement, getting the best from the side and ensuring the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Does Ratts do that? Not recently but by the end of 2011 we will know. Would Geelong have been as good had Thomson been sacked and replaced at the start of 2007? Who knows.

If we weren't so damn impatient in ditching Denis we would be premiers this year!

But is it much easier to be Richmondesque (if thats a word), and satisfy the hordes and sack Ratten.Remember its not how you play the game but how you lay the blame.

Maybe not a great comparison when Geelong have Ablett, Scarlett, Hawkins, Blake from father-son selections (Round 3).

The 22 analysis was a waste of time. The start makes a reasonable point, one that's already been canvassed on these forums (as have such 22 comparisons...).

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I don't mind the patience theory that underlies the tone of the article.

What I don't like is the way it could build a belief that time is all it will take. No mention of hard work, understanding/developing/carrying out the coach's instructions, working as a team and so on.

_________________
Click here to follow TalkingCarlton on twitter
TalkingCarlton Posting Rules

Hacks.

_________________
I hope Essendon* folds.

Ok I dont agree

What about Essendon*, Melbourne and Richmonds improvements with young players. No excuses for lack of effort.

I buy that we are inexperienced but what I dont buy is the fact we dont put our body on the line, cant tackle and cleary dont know what to do when they have the ball.

Does point out that flaky poor form can be turned around.............doesnt really say much else though.

Essendon*'s

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

How does Ratten playing Robbo at FF with Waite and Hendo up the ground fit into all this?


And not sure the writer is correct when saying Blues have 9 top 20 picks, I count 11 ...

x3 no.1 picks
Walker at 2
Kennedy at 4
Yazz at 6
Kane at 12
Grigg at 19
Hammer at 17
Bower at 20
Wiggles at 15

And not sure about claim we have had just 2 trades, I count more than 2...

Judd
Hendo
206

_________________
It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it

Something that I posted preseason in one of the recruitment threads (note the age comparisons were with carlton in 2010 with geelong in 2007) -

kreuzer is tracking to be better than ottens in my book (and by a fair margin). I'm also expecting waite and henderson to play predominantly forward. Waite is a much better forward than anything geelong ever had over the past 3 years (ie mooney/nathan ablett/hawkins) and henderson has shown more than enough promise as a KPP/forward (possibly more than J. kennedy in his first couple of seasons)

Its too early to say whether yarran/garlett/lucas will reach chapman/johnson levels but on exposed form yarran/garlett have the potential to be very good small forwards in their own right. There is also eddie betts who could readily go up another couple of notches if he took his fitness more seriously.

As for the mids, mclean will be a fantastic addition and provided he can remain fit will redefine our midfield setup by releasing Judd to the open spaces.

Also on mids/small forwards - when comparing with geelong its useful to look at the respective ages by using the cats player ages at the start of their period of dominance ie cats player ages going into 2007 season (for simplicity using current age-3yrs) with our rotations for the upcoming 2010 season

Therefore we have the following

wojinski - 26yrs, 2mths v Judd - 26 yrs, 3mths (similar age)
ling - 25 yrs, 9mths v simpson - 25 yrs, 7mths (similar age)
enright - 25yrs, 3mths v mclean - 23 yrs, 1 mth (carlton player 2 yrs younger)
david johnson 25yrs, 2mths v walker - 23yrs, 6mths (carlton player 2 yrs younger)
chapman - 25yrs, 1mth v betts - 23 yrs (carlton player 2 years younger)
corey - 24yrs, 10 mths v murphy - 22 yrs, 4mths (carlton player 2 years younger)
johnson - 23yrs, 5mths v grigg - 21yrs, 7mths (carlton player 2 years younger)
bartell - 23yrs v gibbs - 20yrs, 9mths (carlton player 2 years younger)
kelly - 22 yrs, 11mths v joseph - 20 yrs, 5 mths (carlton player 2 years younger)
ablett - 22yrs, 7mths v garlett - 20yrs, 4mths (carlton player 2 years younger)
selwood - 18yrs v yarran - 18yrs, 11mths (cats player 1 year younger)

Notice anything?
When considering depth and strength of the respective rotations bear in mind that
1. walker+mclean will be 'new' additions to the rotation/onfield performance of 2010
2. physical development of the younger carlton players from 2009 to 2010 (as a guide compare cats 06 and 07 seasons).



The above analysis would suggest that we are probably still a year (and potentially two) behind where geelong were in 2007. Of those that would be expected to significantly improve us in 2011 I'd list the following
yarran (improvements from becoming fitter)
henderson (improvements from becoming stronger)
garlett (improvements from becoming stronger/fitter)
lucas (improvements from becoming stronger/fitter)
bower (injuries in 2010)
waite (coming back from injury in 2010+suspensions)
ruckmen - kreuzer/hampson/warnock have all had injury issues in 2010

mclean is also a potential 'improvement' though a large part of that will be whether or not he can get over his injury concerns. Gibbs is another that might be expected to step up a bit in 2011.

You have a short memory - Despite their improvements in the young players, their %s tell the tale. Essendon*, Melbourne and Richmond all have a long way to go and will experience a few more thrashings yet before they get to the top 4. Just look back to some of their games earlier in the season if you want evidence of that.

3 weeks ago, Essendon* had just lost 5 games in succession by an average of 44 points (including an 84 point loss)
Melbourne have looked good the past 4 weeks, but in the 5 weeks prior to that they managed just one draw and an average margin of 43 points in their losses
Richmond have had 2 big losses (50 & 82 points) in their past 3 games

Young talented teams will give you highs and lows - as the talent develops experience, the lows will be gradually diminished/less frequent.

We've also seen plenty of improvement in our 'young' players this season - just compare the '09 to '10 seasons of the following players - garlett, yarran, warnock, jacobs, walker, armfield, russell, hampson and robinson - despite some form slumps, they have ALL improved on their 09 seasons (as has henderson).

Is this irony?

Yes and we've been waiting for a turnaround for about 6 weeks now!

Oh well, at least this article is more fuel for Stats Ratts to refer to if we get pumped this weekend

Pretty hard to have yarran in that list as he wasn't drafted until 2008 and therefore would actually be 2 years younger, not 1 year older.

I'm with you 4th.

Bumbers have won more games than us in the last fortnight...tough one to swallow.
Richmond and Melbourne have won more games than us in the last 5 weeks too.

We better do something about those issues that burden me...this Friday is a good time to start the turnaround. Please

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue