You're gaggin aren't you!!! You don't reckon that Maxwell O'Brien Shaw wouldn't be the first picked half back line at Carlton???? I'd kill for that half back line atm. And yeah, Maxwell is a good ordinary player, but he has more leadership in his little finger than our whole team has ATM. Your view of our players is a little inflated I think.

And btw, aside from Kreuzer who's LTI, which of our ruckmen is better than Gardiner?

_________________
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

no wonder Juddy & the Kruezers hates Ratts as coach.

Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer and Yarran would be playing in their seconds.

We should have prayed to the draft gods for some of the regulars and not so regulars playing with the top five clubs.

Then we could have had the likes of Skipper, Peterson, Macaffer, Blake, Dawes, Renouf, Stratton, Dawson, Gilham, Ray, McQualter, Schneider, Minson, Picken, Koschitzke, Podsiadly, Goldsack, Johnson, Gwilt, Byrnes, Blair, McEvoy, Toovey, Lockyer, D.Thomas, Lonergan, Steven, Peake, Wellingham and Moles.

We're headed back to the bottom because we missed out on these stars.

I think those you mention would all get games

I'd add maybe Garlett and Waite

Houla and Bower possible as well.

that's 10 but I doubt that 10 would all be in every week

but
Shaw O'Brien Presti Jolly Ball Pendles Daisy Dawes Cloke (oh I must may vomit now) Swan Reid Maxwell Beams definitely every week - that's 13 and I reckon I've forgotten 1 or 2
Goldstein, Dick, Davis, Medhurst, Fraser, Sidebottom as the types that would play some games perhaps not all.

St Kilda Crybaby, Kosi, Hayes, Goddard, Gardiner, Gram, Fisher, Milne, Jones, Montagna, Gildbert, Blake - play every week in our team - that's 12
and fringe In and outs Schnieder, McEnvoy, Ray, Gwilt and McQualter

both have a lot more that would step straight in to our team and also some fringe in and outers.

Doesn't mean we can build this list to be better and that some of ours in a year or 2 might be straight in'ers but not yet. No way.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

My view is that the ''ordinary'' players at other Clubs have improved out of sight......and most of ours haven't.

_________________
No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Hard to argue with that!

I could easily say that your view of the coaching staff is inflated...

_________________
"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

Show me one post where I have even mentioned the coaching staff!!!! What are you talking about??

_________________
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

Oops sorry mate had you mixed up with someone else...but just on the topic....Danny wrote a really good post in this thread or another about Ratts v the players and whose fault it is as regards how far we have come as a team unit...although I am more biased towards the off field influence that post from Danny was pretty much on the money IMO. There are a variety of factors at work...but I honestly believe that our list has immense potential as it stands now and just needs the right guidance and direction....it is not a statement of fact just my opinion and I stand by it..

I also stand by my opinion of the coaching staff and the need for there to be changes off field at seasons end...

_________________
"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

Which is precisely why some of us have genuine concerns about development. IMO, we have stalled overall. Melbourne are quickly catching up and Nth aren't far behind us as well.

_________________
If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

Nice sweeping statement. Want to back this up with some examples/evidence?

_________________
Formerly Blues-Back2003.

No its not - there are just as many players going the other way at every club

The Pies have sent Fraser Anthony and Medhurst backwards at a rate of knots but no one seems to question Mick

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Ppl seem to judge our players on potential not performance to date.

Yazz is a prime example. Sure he has shown glimpses of his silk and no doubt he will become a star, but his output currently is that of inexperienced, talented kid that lacks fitness.

North are miles behind us. Harvey is the glue that holds that team together at present. Take him out of that team, and the midfield loses almost all of its zip and skill.

Melbourne will have their ups and downs and probably have the best list in the competition going forward.

What some people have to start accepting about our list is that anyone under the age of 23 is unlikely to have the fitness for a whole AFL season at their fullest potential. That's the reality of the situation, and why you see Collingwood having a great year, and a team like Adelaide almost making a late charge.

You get the footballers, you give the tactics and strategies, but until they can all run out games as easily as most players in the league, they're going to be up and down through the season. That's the inconsistency that Ratts, Pagan, and any other coach operating with a list loaded with youngsters will tell you.

Take a quick look at the respective 22's for Collingwood & Carlton on the weekend as a break down of over & under 23s:

Collingwood

23 & Over - 14
22 - 4
21 - 0
20 - 3
19 - 1
18 - 0
17 - 0

Carlton

23 & Over - 13
22 - 3
21 - 3
20 - 2
19 - 1
18 - 0
17 - 0

Collingwood are clearly in the enviable position of picking players capable of consistently executing their game plan, with only a select group of youngsters (Beams [2nd round pick], Blair [rookie elevation], Sidebottom [1st round pick] and Reid [1st round pick]). Pretty much anyone without the required endurance is talented enough to get by.

On the other side of it, we have our mob with our barely 22-24 playing group, and 6 players who aren't quite up to the standard of fitness required (Joseph [rookie elevation], Yarran [1st round pick], Garlett [rookie elevation], Gibbs [1st round pick], Henderson [1st round pick], Ellard [rookie elevation]). We hide them up forward, down back and on the bench, but we can't quite paper over the crack that is there.

I'm sure if you cast a wider look at those same categories across both lists we'll look considerably younger than most of the top 8 teams. We're somewhere inbetween Hawthorn and that pack in and around 9 - 12. Another year and I think we're genuinely in the hunt provided we don't have too many injury issues.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

You've got to stop making sense jim........you're spoiling it for all of the arguers...........

_________________
No ones listening till you make a mistake.

So Collingwood have one more player capable of running out the game than us? That's why they are top of the ladder and we are clinging to the top 8?

You need to stop making excuses mate.

I think Jim makes great sense.

_________________
No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Actually I suggested they had two. Bad play is one thing, and we have plenty of that. But I think people's expectations are that we can consistently dominate. I don't think we can.

We have physical AND mental issues in my book, which is why everyone can point at something or another and all seem correct.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.